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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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Below are two photos of the front control arm mounts on the front crossmember of the 57 Tbird. They are different and I am trying to determine if there are parts missing or mismatched causing alignment problems. I am not sure what to make of the differences as they were this way when I purchased the car 10 plus years ago. Any explanation on the assembly, adjustments, torque specs, etc. would be a great help. Thanks.
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By MoonShadow - 11 Years Ago
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I'm no expert but they look ok to me. Little crack in the one rubber but usually when the bushing wear out the rubber gets distorted. They could have enlarged the hole that the bar bolts through. What kind of problems are you seeing? Chuck
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I am fighting finding a decent alignment. I set it and then road test and it changes afterward. I did the Granada disc brake swap and it seemed fine for awhile. I just installed a set of ball joints (premium set from Rare Parts) today and looking things over before dealing with another alignment. I was wondering if the difference in the bushing and arm on the front lower control arms could cause some kind of shift under a load or something like that.
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By miker - 11 Years Ago
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I think someone posted here, a while back, that the 'bird lower bushings installed differently than the pass car. I didn't quite follow the explanation and didn't find it in search. Might be related. Just out of curiosity, what settings do you start with, and what do they shift to?
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I was struggling with this about 4 or 5 months ago. Got frustrated and then decided to finish a 445 stroker build and install on my 65 Galaxie. The Galaxie is done until a new C6 shows up in a few weeks. So I am back at the Tbird. The changing alignment was fairly dramatic back when I parked it. The toe would change enough to cause the tires to scrub around corners and could hear the front tires squeal braking over the paint stripes at a stop sign. Camber would go out of whack also. Wore myself out today doing the ball joints and set a quick toe by eyeball and road tested thinking I might get lucky..Ha! I will set up the alignment tomorrow to get a baseline and then road test again to see what happens. I am a former Ford wrench and did a few years of alignments way back then so I understand the fundamentals. I have toe-in gauge and a Fasttrack camber/caster gauge. Not the most high tech digital stuff but I can get it pretty damn close.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I couldn't let it go tonight so after dinner I checked the alignment. I found the toe to be toed out about 3/4" or more and caster/camber was:Drivers side Passenger side Camber + 1 1/2 degree - 1 degree Caster 0 degree + 2 degree I adjusted the toe to about an 1/8 toe in. Drove the car a couple miles. Now it measures: Camber + 1/2 degree + 1/2 degree Caster 0 degree + 1 degree
The Tbird specs: Camber + 1/2 to +1 1/2 degrees Caster +1 to + 1 1/2 degrees I need to do more road testing tomorrow. I was getting something like bump steer on the highway that I hope is gone now. If so then I need to center the steering wheel and call it good unless I want to chase 1 degree of caster. I hope.
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By miker - 11 Years Ago
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Mark, PM sent.
Mike
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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the inner part of the assembly is missing in the upper picture. As near as I can tell from my MarkMontereyBay (5/3/2014)
Below are two photos of the front control arm mounts on the front crossmember of the 57 Tbird. They are different and I am trying to determine if there are parts missing or mismatched causing alignment problems. I am not sure what to make of the differences as they were this way when I purchased the car 10 plus years ago. Any explanation on the assembly, adjustments, torque specs, etc. would be a great help. Thanks.
Mark, the difference that I see is that the cylindrical sleeve over inner part of the assembly is missing in the upper picture. As near as I can tell these sleeves are to keep crud out and should not contribute to any alignment issues. But I could stand corrected - It wouldn't be the first time!
I struggled with the installation with new bushings on my car as there was a difference in the way the bushings were assembled on my car and the way the manual said they should be assembled. The manual said that the front bushing is pressed in from the outside of the arm for cars and from the inside for Thunderbirds. Another member later posted (referencing Service letter P235) that the '55 manual was in error as it referred to a type of bushing that was never released by Ford. All front bushings are pressed in from inside. I would guess that this carried over to 1957.
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By aussiebill - 11 Years Ago
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lyonroad (5/4/2014)
the inner part of the assembly is missing in the upper picture. As near as I can tell from my MarkMontereyBay (5/3/2014)
Below are two photos of the front control arm mounts on the front crossmember of the 57 Tbird. They are different and I am trying to determine if there are parts missing or mismatched causing alignment problems. I am not sure what to make of the differences as they were this way when I purchased the car 10 plus years ago. Any explanation on the assembly, adjustments, torque specs, etc. would be a great help. Thanks.
Mark, the difference that I see is that the cylindrical sleeve over inner part of the assembly is missing in the upper picture. As near as I can tell these sleeves are to keep crud out and should not contribute to any alignment issues. But I could stand corrected - It wouldn't be the first time!
I struggled with the installation with new bushings on my car as there was a difference in the way the bushings were assembled on my car and the way the manual said they should be assembled. The manual said that the front bushing is pressed in from the outside of the arm for cars and from the inside for Thunderbirds. Another member later posted (referencing Service letter P235) that the '55 manual was in error as it referred to a type of bushing that was never released by Ford. All front bushings are pressed in from inside. I would guess that this carried over to 1957.
MARK, you are correct, that sleeve is there as you say, has nothing to do with alignment, etc, one is missing thats all.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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Thanks for clearing up the differences in the photos of the front control arms. That has been bugging me for years and never found information explaining it. That said after road testing today I still have some "bump steer-like" effects when hitting a bump at freeway speeds as it wants to turn from the straight ahead course. After reading some articles on the web, I think getting more significant caster will help. Maybe up to 4 degrees. Miker sent me a pm about possibly making some modifications to get more caster without throwing the camber out of range, not sure how this is done. Any other advice on getting the caster I need will be appreciated.
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By glrbird - 11 Years Ago
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Mark, The orgional settings did not take into account radial tires. If I remember correct the setting should be different for radials. If you HAVE radials I should have asked.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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As I remember from my alignment classes back in the Stone Age, the only difference for radial tire specs is the toe-in should be about 1/8th toe-in as opposed to straight ahead for the 'vintage" bias ply tires. I have 225/60-15 Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S blackwalls on the Tbird and the 65 Galaxie. Awesome tire. Unfortunately Michelin no longer makes 15 inch tires. I spent much time rounding up a set of four needed for the Tbird a year or so ago. May have been the last ones available.
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By skygazer - 11 Years Ago
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I agree with getting as much caster as you can if you are running radials on California freeways. There is a limit to how much is available with the shims... I don't have my last printout handy, but I think my alignment guy got me almost 2 degrees.
Anyway, I'm happy with the result. My bird is stable for as fast as I ever want to go (considerably over the speed limit), with no unwelcome excitement. I'm running Grenada spindles, 1.5" drop, Aerostar springs, Adco sway bars front & rear, KYB gas-a-just. Stock steelies, 205x75R15's |
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By CK - 11 Years Ago
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I believe the spacers are for pressing the bushes in, as I used them for earlier this year.
And are the tyres you are using the same rolling diameter? Obviously a smaller tyre will result in a lesser castor.
With the changing settings are you loosening the bushes and tightening them with the vehicle weight on the wheels. Are you setting the alignment after its been around the block or after dropping it off the jacks? As you would know being a fellow mechanic the suspension will sit up a bit etc. |
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By CK - 11 Years Ago
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Oh and the lower control arm bolts in the chassis was tough to budge, how about yours?
I guess it didn't help not knowing if they actually were ment to be removed to replace the bushes. But logic and persistence payed and one eventually let go etc. |
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I am using the Ford specs as a starting point being the front suspension is modified and the tire diameter is smaller (26" vs 27"). The rolling diameter is kind of a crapshoot as the difference between the bias ply and radial is a bit mysterious. The lower control arm mounting bolts were tight but not frozen and with some penetrating oil and a large breaker bar they came loose. I made some homemade turning plates using 12" by 12" floor tiles and chassis lube. Works great. I check the alignment after driving a mile or so and jounce the suspension also to make sure it sits normally. If I can get 2 degrees caster and the car is stable at "reasonable" speed (75mph) I will be happy. I used the Granada spindles and Aerostar springs when doing the disc brake swap but it sat far too low for the front tire clearance so now using new stock springs. Sits a little high for my taste but it is a compromise.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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So I am working out a plan to shim the upper a-arm to get to or close to 2 degrees caster. The Ford service manual states that the difference between the shim packs ( front and rear) should not exceed 1/8 inch. That's not going to get me there. Is this a hard and fast rule or can it be cheated some?
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By miker - 11 Years Ago
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I don't know about the rules, but my car was more than 1/8" different on one side if not both. The problem I ran into was at 1* and 1 1/2* caster, I had as much neg camber as the alignment guy would go. That was with the 225/60-15's on the front. I had that alignment done when I replaced the 205/70-15's. There was an increase in camber, but I don't know how much. The 205's had not shown any unusual wear, so the original setting had to be close.
So I guess the next question is, how much neg camber can you run on a 225/60-15 on a 7" rim?
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I am wondering what change in camber would result from trying to shim the lower control arm forward at the crossmember front and rear mounting points.
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By 2721955meteor - 11 Years Ago
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the 1 side has a lock washer,the other side is missing the lock washer,it apears the nut may have run out of thread and not compressing the rubber.alowing movement
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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CK (5/6/2014)
I believe the spacers are for pressing the bushes in, as I used them for earlier this year.
I'm intrigued by this. Did you press the bushings in with the arms in the car. I never thought of using the sleeve for this. I did mine out of the car using a piece of exhaust tubing and spacers like this.
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By MoonShadow - 11 Years Ago
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That clever! More than one way to skin a cat! Chuck
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I found this photo on Google images. Looks like I might be missing some parts? Also, the sleeve, shown in my original photos, that is between the front control arm and the front crossmember on one side is about half as long as the other. What is up with that?
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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MarkMontereyBay (5/7/2014)
Also, the sleeve, shown in my original photos, that is between the front control arm and the front crossmember on one side is about half as long as the other. What is up with that?
Mark, what appears to be a half sized sleeve in your upper photo is actually the back half of the bushing. The sleeve (as shown in your second photo) goes over that bushing.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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After getting a better view under the car here is what I found. First, both bushing shafts have lock washers behind the nut, just doesn't show well in the photos I took. Second, the drivers side without the sleeve has two 1/8th inch washers with a flat side acting as shims, the other side has no shims. There are no shims on the rear lower control arms on the second crossmember mounts. I think I can get the extra degree of caster on the drivers side which is showing 0 degree caster now by removing the two washers(shims) and rechecking the alignment. Here is a better photo. You can see two washers, one with the flat side showing, between the crossmember boss and some bushing rubber that has pushed out.
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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Mark let us know what you find. When I loosely assembled mine I had to insert shims to fill in the gaps. Maybe, rather than removing shims you may have to relocate them to keep everything solid. I modified some body shims so I can pull them out and/or move them around without disassembling everything. I couldn't find shims with a large enough slot for the control arm shafts.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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My plan is to "slide" front bushing shaft back and take out the shims, unfortunately they aren't slotted, and loosening the rear bushing shaft then tightening the front. Depending on the amount of space in the rear bushing to the frame boss, I will make some sort of slotted shim to fit. Not an easy thing to do, getting front shaft out and back in without taking the coil spring out but have done it with a floor jack and a come-along if it gets stubborn to line it up. DId this back in the day on FSeries twin I beam radius rod bushings.
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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MarkMontereyBay (5/8/2014)
My plan is to "slide" front bushing shaft back and take out the shims, unfortunately they aren't slotted, and loosening the rear bushing shaft then tightening the front. Depending on the amount of space in the rear bushing to the frame boss, I will make some sort of slotted shim to fit. Not an easy thing to do, getting front shaft out and back in without taking the coil spring out but have done it with a floor jack and a come-along if it gets stubborn to line it up. DId this back in the day on FSeries twin I beam radius rod bushings.
Mark, as I said I enlarged the slot in some 1'8" thick horseshoe shaped shims to work on the control arm shafts. Good to know it can be done with the springs in place. I also know about the Fseries twin I beams. I pulled a pair out of an F250 to replace the springs and kingpins. It was no easy task. The thought of my home made spring compressor still gives me night sweats!
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By MarkMontereyBay - 11 Years Ago
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I was able to get the front arm bushing shaft out easy enough just using a floor jack and a pry bar to line things up. I removed the two shims and tightened it up. Then with the retainer nut on the rear bushing shaft backed off, I pried the A-arm forward. There was enough room for the two 1/8" shims to fit so I cut slots in the ones I took out of the front and used them. I went around and tightened all the bushing retaining nuts just because. The road test was good and it is much more stable, less like steering a shopping cart. Still tracks straight and doesn't have a pull to one side or the other. I set the alignment stuff up and now I have:
Passenger Driver Camber +1/2 degree +1 degreeCaster + 1 degree +1 1/4 degrees Rechecking the toe-in, it is closer to straight ahead maybe a 1/16th toed in which is fine. So I centered the steering wheel and it drives well. I did check the toe-in for bump steer by lifting the front with a jack up to 3 inches. I have a bout 3/4" toe in at 3 inches. Too much and I notice a quick twitch side to side at speed on a big bump on the rebound when the car lifts. Not real bad but I need to look at some bump steer tie rod kits. So then I take it out for nice drive along the beach in the sun and when I get back, I put it in park, shut it off and start to get out of the car. No park, starts rolling slowly backward. My first thought was the detent ball and spring in the Fordo. If anybody has gone through the torture of installing that ball and spring upside down under the car, you should be awarded the Medal of Yblock Honor. But, I can feel the detents as normal so I think that part is ok. Need to pull the trans pan and see what came loose.
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By lyonroad - 11 Years Ago
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Mark, no help from me with the Fordo but it never ends does it?
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By CK - 11 Years Ago
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lyonroad (5/7/2014)
CK (5/6/2014)
I believe the spacers are for pressing the bushes in, as I used them for earlier this year.
I'm intrigued by this. Did you press the bushings in with the arms in the car. I never thought of using the sleeve for this. I did mine out of the car using a piece of exhaust tubing and spacers like this.
No I removed the arms and when removing the old bushes i was curious what the spacers were therefore and eventually put two and two together.So i basically did as yourself yet with the spacers provided.
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