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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Im finding a lot of different options for pullys. 3/8, 7/16, and 1/2. If you balancer is 3/8" does that mean your committed to 3/8" on the rest, or can you mix and match? Is there a good source for replacement pullies in all widths? Are any of the pullies designed to accomodate more than one belt width? If I understand correctly, the proper placement for a belt in a pully is to ride high on the pully. In other words, not burried in the groove, but with a little bit of the belt surface riding just above the surface of the pully. Is that correct?
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By Rono - 11 Years Ago
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Darrell;
That is my understanding too. If the belt bottoms out in the pulley it will slip and squeal. Best to try and have all the pulleys with the same groove width.
Rono
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Thanks Rono. As of now, I came across a good NOS double sheave balancer and installed it for future upgrade to power steering. It has the 3/8" grooves. I have a 3/8" water pump pully as well. That leaves the stock generator which has been changed over to a gm one wire, which I believe has a 3/8" groove as well. The all line up. Wondering if I should use one belt or try and figure out how to use two belts.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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I might as well put my foot in my mouth. Im looking at the stock fan blade to see which way it should be installed. One side has the four rivets holding it together finished heads on one side and the tails on the other. There is a "ford in oval" stamped on the side with the rivet heads. Looking at the fan facing the engine, I believe it rotates clockwise. It appears, with emphasis on appears, the fan blows the cooling air back towards the engine regardless of which way the fan is mounted. Not quite grasping how thats possible, but so far, it does not look like it makes a difference. Were these fans designed so they can be mounted either way? Is there a right way and a wrong way the stock fan should be installed?
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By Daniel Jessup - 11 Years Ago
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Most concerns about movement of air have to do with the circular rotation of the fan itself, not just the direction the blades are pointing. I believe the finished head side goes toward the radiator.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Thats what im more less seeing. When I compared the fan to an electric circulating air fan, its all out of sync. I guess if the purpose is to blow air towards the radiator to cool the fluid makes more sense than blowing cooled air back over the engine makes more sense. I just never really thought about it. When your going down the highway at 60 mph with the air comming straight at you and the fan blowing it straight ahead, seems like the faster you go, the less effective the fan would be. Almost like they would be "fighting" each other.
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By Rono - 11 Years Ago
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Since we are in this area of discussion, let me ask this; What is the normal distance between the fan and radiator core?
Rono
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By marvh - 11 Years Ago
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Here is what a dual drive belt setup looks like. The damper pulley is from a 63 truck, I think number is C3TE. I had to machine the rear surface of the power steering pulley and the front surface of the dual sheave pulley total about 80 thou to allow bolting them together. I had Damper Doctor balance the complete unit.
marv
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Not sure on that one Rono cause I dont have any of them together yet.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Marv, I see double pullys between the dampner, water pump, and alternator. I cant quite see the power steering pump, but it looks to be a singl pully between the dampner and power steering unit. Correct?
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By marvh - 11 Years Ago
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Yes, the power steering pulley is a single groove. Th damper pulley is double groove 3/8" belt.
marv
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Where on earth did you ever find a double pully for the water pump? I assume it would be fairly easy to find a double pulley for the alternator just looking after market, but never saw anything close to that double pulley water pump. Awesome set up. I assume you have a double sheave dampner with a bolt on pully for the power steering?
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By marvh - 11 Years Ago
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The WP pulley is from a 67 Fairlane with a 390. The dampener is a double sheave used on the truck engines with a 292. It is bolted on with crank bolt. The PS pulley is a regular PS pulley and is bolted to the dampener pulley with the 2 3/8bolts just as a regular The alternator pulley was the hardest to find, it is from a Mustang with a 4 banger and air.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Cool. I just found a double pulley alternator from Powermaster. Jegs has it for $15 and we went over the dimensions. It sounds like a good fit. Ordered it and headed to the bone yards to look for a water pump pulley donar. Thanks!
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Well there went $10 out the window. First, I did find an exact match that had the correct 3/4" shaft hole and correct pattern for the four mounting bolts. The pulley had two 3/8" grooves that looked like they would line up with the dampner pullys. Problem being, there was a thrid pulley on the fan side that appeard to run a 1/2" belt. I did not want the extra pulley so I passed that one by. I looked at literally hundreds more and found one that looked like a perfect match on diamter and groove width (3/8"). However, the center hole was not quite 3/4" and the mounting holes would require elongating or drilling in a new location on the pulley. I figured it was something I could do. Wrong.........when I got it drilled out to fit the shaft, it did not line up with the grooves on the dampner. So long story short, if you find one that looks like an exact replacement but has the wrong mounting holes and wrong diamter shaft hole, it may not line up with the grooves. Back to the junk yard..........
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By stuey - 11 Years Ago
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sounds like you have a truck pump with a 3/4 shaft? so this may not be of any help
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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thats correct, the shaft on the water pump is 3/4". Im wondering if any of the reporduction double pulleys would be a bolt on. I will know a little more when I get my double pulley for the alternator. At least if that fits I will be two out of three. I can change the water pump if I have to or machine the hole on the new water pump pulley to 3/4".
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Marvh,
If I find a double water pump pulley that fits a 67 Ford Fairlane with a 390 are you thinking it will line up with my C3TE dampner? Does your water pump have a 1/2 or 3/4 shaft?
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Rono, I was lookin at an older post and was wondering if you ordered the MOTA 72001 2 groove water pump pulley from Amazon. They have ten in stock. If so, did it line up with the dampner? Was the 2nd groove on the engine side or the radiator side?
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By stuey - 11 Years Ago
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this is my work in progress. i'm using 3/8 belts and my water pump shaft is car 5/8 I believe. getting every thing to line up is proving difficult. I look at it one day and it looks ok the next morning it looks out of line. i've made a whole heap of spacers and i'm still not happy.
the double groove water pump pulley is C7OE-8509-D from e-bay
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Well your doing better than I am. So far, I can get a perfect alignment with the C6AE double dampner with the single pulleys on the alternator (gm one wire) and the stock water pump single pulley. Its trying to drive a second belt off the dampner to a donar double water pump and donar double alternator that Im having issues with.
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By marvh - 11 Years Ago
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Darrell:
My WP is on a car. It has the 5/8 shaft. On the truck WP's: I don't know whether the truck pump shaft snout is longer or shorter than a car's shaft snout so cannot give you good advice whether you need a deeper or shallower WP pulley.
Once I had to press the hub deeper on a new WP to get correct alignment of all pulleys. This new pump's hub was not pressed on far enough.
Stuey: what pulleys won't line up?
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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I did see somewhere that adjusting the pully mount on the water pump shaft was an option. Sounds a bit tricky to me. If you go to far then you have to figure out how to get it back. My skills are limited to getting it closer to the block but not the other way. Think of the poor guy who buys a replacement water pump and goes by the part number. May drive a man to drinkin.
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By stuey - 11 Years Ago
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Marvh
its not that the pulleys will not line up, its more how do you know when they are aligned? is it just by vernia eyeballs or is there a special tool eg a laser device? I've tried a straight edge in the bottom of the "v" but you can convince yourself either way. a straight edge across the front of the pulleys kind of works but you have to make allowances for the differences in pulley design.
how accurate does it have to be? I think i'm within a 1/16th.
Outlaw56
the pulley mount is a press fit on the shaft and can be adjusted, in the 56 truck book it gives measurements for various applications. a three legged puller can be used to move the mount forward. to move the mount towards the pump body you need a press and to support the end of the shaft.
I had a look at a couple of old truck pumps with the 3/4 shaft and the 4 mounting bolts seem to be on the same pcd as the car version so I would have thought just drilling out a car pulley would work on a truck pump.
but then I am new to all this and lack experience I rely on you guys for that.
stuey
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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If your relying on me, your in big trouble. There must be a standard when the pulleys are sold with the hub assembled. I have never had to adjust one, they always just bolted on and I never had any issues with belts. I think Im going to continue looking for a ford water pump pulley that will work without moving the mounting hub. If I cant do it that way, then I will revert back to single pulley alternator, single pulley water pump, and leave the second groove on the dampner open for power steering (if I ever do that modification). If the stock single groove dampner and the double groove dampner are the same dimensions, I at least have a single belt thats properly aligned. When I compare single groove dampners to double groove dampners (the ones I have collected), they all seem to be the same belt groove pattern exept for the added belt groove on the doubles (fan side of the dampner).
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Still waiting on the 5/8" 62 F-100 water pump to arrive. It was $106 brand new no core. Pretty spendy. The guy had it delivered from another store but no charge for delivery so only reason we are looking at the 5/8" shaft is to compare next to 3/4" shaft and see if pulley offset is the same on both pumps.
So meanwhile, I drilled out my water pump pulley. Its a perfect fit with a 3/16" spacer between the shaft hub and mounting surface of the pulley. A carpenter square lines up perfectly across the face of the dampner and across the face of the water pump pulley. The alternator pulley needs a 1/8" pulley, but there is another issue. I have a John Mummert generator/alternator conversion bracket. I have a reconditioned alternator. In the instructions for Johns mount, it says you may need to shim the alternator if the rebuild housing was worn. I assume mine has some wear on it. When I put tension on the belt, it pulls the face of the alternator pulley out of square almost 1/8" inch. I dont see where to shim it to square up the alternator in the bracket. Every other alternator I have ever removed or installed has had similar "play". The difference is on those, I never checked them with a square to see if tightening the belts tweaked the alternator.
There is a tiny bit of clearance where the mounting bolt connects the alternator to the bracket and there is a tiny bit of clearance between the witdh of the mounting surface to the bracket. I dont see any more clearance here than any other project I have ever worked on. I never had to force any alternator into its bracket and I never had to pound any mounting bolts into the holes that line up the alternator ith the bracket.
I either have to figure out how to shim an alternator or be assured this is not uncommon and will not lead to any belt alignment issues down thee road. Any suggestions or thoughts on this?
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By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
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You can make spacers to fit between the alternater bracket and engine block / timing cover. Make sure the bolts will still be long enough so you don't strip the threads.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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I will look into that option Charlie, how the heck did I get italic print going?
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By slick56 - 11 Years Ago
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Outlaw56 (6/11/2014)
how the heck did I get italic print going?
Hi Darrell, if you look above where you are writing, from left there is a capital B, a capital I, a capital U underlined , and an S with a strike through.If you highlight the text you want to italicize and click the capital I, that should do it.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Well I'll be dipped. I see the boxes above, but they are all blank blue except for Font and Size. They are both white with down arrows on them for different choices. When I click on the blue squares, the offer different options. Have not found a capitol I yet, but will spend some time there. Meanwhile, regarding my previous part about the alternator being a little loose in the bracket. Charlie suggested shimming the bracket. Charlie, the "wobble" is the alternator inside the bracket. The bracket is too tight to get a shim in anywhere, but the brakcet wabbles enough on the bolt that it moves the face of the pulley off square almost 1/8". I dont think shimming the bracket out will work if the result is still the alternator wobbling in the bracket. John machines these brackets to the size of alternators when they are new, so any wear in the housing or bolt hole mount on a rebuilt bracket is going to translate to a wobble on the mount. I dont see anywhere to "shim" it. Only thing I see is to bore it out and sleeve it, or confirm that a little "wobble" of the alternator in the bracket is normal.
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By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
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If you need to move the alternator forward then shims between the bracket and engine will do just that. It will move the entire assembly forward. That's bracket to engine, not bracket to alternator.
To eliminate the wobble, you need a shim that goes on the bolt that the alternator pivots on. If you tighten up the clearance there, it shouldn't wobble and should keep it square.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Charlie, got it. The guy at NAPA went in the back room and took a bolt shim out of a chevy alternator. Apparently it comes with chevy alternators to make either a metric or standard bolt fit with that rebuild. It did fit and it helped, but its still could be tighter. Where do I find these shims in different sizes?
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By 2721955meteor - 11 Years Ago
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it may help,i just dismantled a 292 truck engine,truck front covers that goes on the truck engine is diferent in as the truck wp is larger. mine has a 2shive pulley that is cast,and bolts to the water pump. the front damper is a 2 shive type,It is spaced differently. i have a ranchero with power steering and compared the 2 for a guy looking for psteer on a car. the bet size and spacing is different as you have a truck front cover you do not have a lot of choice.thes parts ar surplace to me. wher do you live. would make a trade for a truck oil pump pickup,a car water pump for the truck pump i have the pulley for the truck pump, and would trade front dampener for car 1 .power steering may need larger grove pulley as the truck bampner has both groves larger than car. email me and let me know what you need. i live close to blain w a so frt won't be to bad ct1940@shae.ca cliff
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By charliemccraney - 11 Years Ago
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Outlaw56 (6/12/2014)
Where do I find these shims in different sizes?
I don't think you'll find anything for that specific purpose, but a good hardware store is the best place to start. You should definitely find something that can be made to work easily.
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By stuey - 11 Years Ago
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Hi there
hope you are making progress with your project. just a bit more info that may be of help/interest as you mentioned in an earlier post you were thinking of adding power steering. i'm happy with my double belt setup, 3/8 belt alternator - water pump and crank, and have been looking at the single belt power steering pulleys and I am convinced the pulley on the Eaton pump and the front pulley on the John Mummert bolt on are for a 1/2" belt. can any one, John, confirm that power steering belts are 1/2 "?
stuey
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Thanks for the offer Cliff. I think I have everything I need to run dual belts on my Y blocks. The only issue is getting the wobble out of the rebuilt alternator. One is going to run power steering and the other is going to run just dampner, alt, and water pump. I wanted them both set up for dual belts in case I ever add power steering to the other one. Meanwhile, I like the idea of dual belts in case one breaks, I have the back up. I didnt want whoever ends up with my trucks having to firgure out how to double belt them or look for parts to add other accessories.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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Stuey,
Doing well on the progress, lots of trial and error but Im down to just figuring out how to get a rebuilt alternator to be "wobble free" on a John Mummert generator to alternator mount. I have the same issue with a Vintage Air "air compressor, gen/alternator" mount. Both rebuilt alternators seem to have a little wobble on the bolt that mounts them to the bolt that secures them to the brackets. A guy at NAPA gave me a "sleeve" that came out of a kit from a Chevy rebuilt alternator. Its to use if needed when your gm alternator has a metric/sae bolt that needs to be tightened up. It helped, but I could use one just a little thicker. Is just a piece of flat rectulanger thin guage metal wrapped in a circle (leaving a slot to adjust when shaped around a bolt). Not sure how much tighter I can get it but still not happy with the wobble even after installing the bushing. I could have the alternator mounting bracket bored out and re sleeved, but I dont want to have to do that to every alternator I buy in the future.
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By Outlaw56 - 11 Years Ago
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So, update on swapping a 62 F-100 5/8"" shaft water pump for an earlier model with a 3/4" shaft. The brand new pump I ordered was compared to the stock 3/4" water pump. Everything looked good until I put the measure to it. The distance between the mounting surface of the pump body to the block and the mounting surface of the hub is 1/4". I had to use a 3/16" shim to get the 3/4" pump to line up. If my measurements are correct, the 1/4" offset would cause the water pump pulley to be 1/16" in the wrong direction to shim to be in line with the double dampner. That may or may not be accurate once everything is mounted and tightened up. But, considering the other issues: The brand new pump is made in China. It has much less support in the neck area of the hub surrounding the shaft. It appears the truck pumps with the 5/8" shaft are much more harder to find than the truck pumps with the 3/4" shaft. It comes down to swapping pumps or drilling out a donar water pump pulley from a 5/8" inch hole to a 3/4 inch hole. Personally, I think its a better choice to stick with the 3/4 water pump shafts and redrill any donar water pump pulleys if needed. With my present system, I have perfect alignment on double balancer, double water pump pulley, and double alternator pulley. I have the alternator pulley issue and with the latest improvements, it pulls 1/16" out of square when the belt is tightened. If anyone wants to pursue this project using a 62/63 F series double dampner, I can tell you what double groove water pump and alternator pulleys will work for you. Its a pretty sweet set up (at least I think so).
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