By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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That is the question. Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows I may get from this august college of y-block knowledge for what I’m contemplating, or to keep the y-block and be relegated to rolling speed bump status when climbing some of the hills in my area. I’m on the horns of a moral dilemma. I’m kicking around the idea of swapping a 390 crate motor into my ’55 Merc. A cursory comparison of building my y for more power vs a mild 390 says the 390 would be the cost effective way to go. Here’s the rub: I’m as certain as I can be that my engine is original to the chassis. There’s something to be said for the “rightness” of keeping them together. So what say ye? All opinions are welcome but probably won’t affect my decision.
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By charliemccraney - 10 Years Ago
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If cost effectiveness is the determining factor, then it is a question only you can answer. Make your best effort to figure the total cost of the FE swap and compare that to your best effort to figure the cost of a Y that will perform acceptably to you.
When contemplating the FE, remember that it is not just an engine you will be buying. You will need a whole lot more stuff to complete the swap. It will be mounts, transmission, driveshaft modification, clutch or automatic transmission linkage, throttle linkage, fuel, coolant, and possibly transmission plumbing, exhaust routing, at least a little wiring, etc. And the list will not be limited to those. When it is all figured, engine swaps are not usually the bargain they seem to be at first.
Regarding the possibility of having the original engine, the only way it stays original is if you don't touch it. If you modify that engine, it is no longer original. Another Y block will definitely swap in with no permanent modifications required to the car - you can always go back and have it be original. With a swap to any other family of engines, there is always the risk that some permanent change will need to be made in order to get it installed and functioning correctly. In my book, that means the car can never be considered to be original again. Even if you go back and repair it, to look like new, it is no longer original. So if originality is important too you, also make sure that the FE will go in without any alteration to the frame, body, or any other original parts and figure into the cost of the swap any parts you will need to make or have made to avoid altering original parts.
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (6/27/2015)
If cost effectiveness is the determining factor, then it is a question only you can answer. Make your best effort to figure the total cost of the FE swap and compare that to your best effort to figure the cost of a Y that will perform acceptably to you. When contemplating the FE, remember that it is not just an engine you will be buying. You will need a whole lot more stuff to complete the swap. It will be mounts, transmission, driveshaft modification, clutch or automatic transmission linkage, throttle linkage, fuel, coolant, and possibly transmission plumbing, exhaust routing, at least a little wiring, etc. And the list will not be limited to those. When it is all figured, engine swaps are not usually the bargain they seem to be at first. Regarding the possibility of having the original engine, the only way it stays original is if you don't touch it. If you modify that engine, it is no longer original. Another Y block will definitely swap in with no permanent modifications required to the car - you can always go back and have it be original. With a swap to any other family of engines, there is always the risk that some permanent change will need to be made in order to get it installed and functioning correctly. In my book, that means the car can never be considered to be original again. Even if you go back and repair it, to look like new, it is no longer original. So if originality is important too you, also make sure that the FE will go in without any alteration to the frame, body, or any other original parts and figure into the cost of the swap any parts you will need to make or have made to avoid altering original parts.
Thanks Charlie. When I said the engine is original I meant it is the original block and heads as near as can be determined by comparing the engine production date to the chassis production date. As you know, Ford didn't tie engine numbers to chassis numbers back then. As far as originality of the engine itself, it's pretty unlikely it contains all the original internals. The car itself certainly isn't original since it's an old school lead sled. The odo said 68,000 when I bought the it and I'm sure it has rolled over at least once. The paint isn't the right color for a Merc engine, and I've had the pan off to replace the rear main seal and it was clean in there, indicating someone had been there before. The guy I bought it from knew nothing about its history. It's the Monterey version of the 292; 7.6:1 compression and 188 HP at the flywheel out of the box. That was OK 60 years ago but now it struggles to keep up with traffic when climbing Monteagle. I have to drop it out of OD which instantly reduces my engine-safe top speed to 50 or 55 and I usually get stuck behind a line of trucks that are doing 35 to 40 or less. Basically, I need more mid range torque for this 3600 lb hunk of Detroit iron. A box stock 390 likely has more of that than I can get out of extensive mods to the y. I'm aware of the costs and hassles involved in a swap. As I said, I'm just kickin' the tires right now.
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By charliemccraney - 10 Years Ago
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While you won't set speed records, 188hp should move 3600lbs nicely. It should cruise at modern highway speeds, and should not be holding anyone up. Since it does not seem to do that, it may not actually be the 188hp engine, it may be worn out, it may be improperly tuned, etc.
What is your rpm at "engine-safe top speed?" Unless you are geared real short, I don't see how you can be near any such rpm at only 50 to 55 in drive, 1:1. Maybe it's not drive?
Expecting to cost effectively equal the torque of an engine with nearly 100 more ci is unrealistic, but I think a Y can work for you quite easily. How much is the crate engine? When I think a crate engine, I think of something like you might get from summit, that is not stock. With a brief search, the cheapest I find is about $4000. If I look for remanufactured engines, I find about $1600, plus intake, plus distributor, plus exhaust, plus carb, etc. Add on top of that the cost to actually perform the swap, and that is a pretty sweet Y block. I think for a fraction of the cost of the swap you can have a Y that will perform sufficiently, though probably not with equal torque.
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (6/27/2015)
While you won't set speed records, 188hp should move 3600lbs nicely. It should cruise at modern highway speeds, and should not be holding anyone up. Since it does not seem to do that, it may not actually be the 188hp engine, it may be worn out, it may be improperly tuned, etc.
Worn out is unlikely, no outward signs of it (smoke, blow by, etc.). Poorly tuned is a possibility. Also the heads could stand to be freshened up. When I got it I found someone had set the valves at 0 lash. I backed 'em off to the proper lash but I may have one or 2 leaking.
What is your rpm at "engine-safe top speed?"
3000 at 60 in direct drive. The speedo indicates 70 at that RPM but it reads 8 to 10 mph fast.
Unless you are geared real short, I don't see how you can be near any such rpm at only 50 to 55 in drive, 1:1. Maybe it's not drive?
Dana 45 with 4.09:1 ratio. In OD it's effectively 3.73:1.
Expecting to cost effectively equal the torque of an engine with nearly 100 more ci is unrealistic, but I think a Y can work for you quite easily.
How much is the crate engine?
$3600 for a long block from CME in S.Carolina.
When I think a crate engine, I think of something like you might get from summit, that is not stock.
This one isn't stock but nearly so; has an RV cam and a few other minor tweaks. It's intended for a daily driver.
With a brief search, the cheapest I find is about $4000. If I look for remanufactured engines, I find about $1600, plus intake, plus distributor, plus exhaust, plus carb, etc. Add on top of that the cost to actually perform the swap, and that is a pretty sweet Y block.
The other possible fly in the ointment; finding a trustworthy local machine shop. I've talked to a few mechanics around here and none of them like any of the local shops (rural Middle TN).
I think for a fraction of the cost of the swap you can have a Y that will perform sufficiently, though probably not with equal torque.
I wouldn't expect torque equal to a 390. I'm just thinking a 390 might be the easy way to get there given the machine situation around here.
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By charliemccraney - 10 Years Ago
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3000rpm is nowhere near a maximum safe rpm. Try giving it a little more.
There have to be good machine shops near you. Got any race tracks near by? Ask the racers who they recommend. There are also some pros here who can build a "crate" Y. I really think you can do this for less than the cost of a swap.
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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Thanks again, Charlie. I'll keep looking at machine shops I heard there's a good one in Clarksville, but that's about 170 miles away from me. I like to keep things a local as possible.
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By miker - 10 Years Ago
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I don't disagree with anything Charlie said, and I'm also a fan of engine swaps. That said, why don't you take a closer look at what you've got. If it's not smoking or using oil, the rings should be ok. Check the casting numbers on the heads, and go look at John Mummerts site. It might be a set of smaller chamber heads, with better ports and valves, and a later intake manifold will up the power. You don't say which carb you've got, or dizzy, but there might be something out of whack there. Changing the cam is a real PITA, but if it was run with 0 clearance that might be a problem, also.
You might need to pull the pan again, and check the bearings. Pull a head, and look for taper in the cylinders. But if the short block is good, you can go a long ways without machine work, and make noticeably more power.
When I had a stock 292 in my 55 bird, I ran it to 3500 all the time. By 4000, it was laying down with the stock cam. But the 3sp O/D gives a lot of gearing options, especially 2nd O/D on the hills. You've probably got a T-86 with an R-10, and that won't stand up to a 390 unless you're really careful. The cheapest option is probably a T-85 with an R-11. A Tremec trans, or an auto gets you into linkage/shifter problems.
The other thing is, and I don't know about TN, out here on the left coast, lead sleds didn't generally have an engine change, or even much "hop up" visible. The three on the tree was part of the charm.
Your car, so it's all fine with me. Just enjoy the ride.
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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The heads and manifold are the stock pieces for the Monterey spec 292. Small valves. It leaks oil but doesn't burn it. Edelbrock 500 cfm Performer carb, late model y-block distributor with a Pertronix conversion. Had a look at the bearings when we had the pan off for the main seal; looked good. The trans is a T-85 with R11 OD. With that and the Dana 45, basically a truck axle, it's almost as if Ford was anticipating someone swapping in a 390; both of those are much stronger than needed for a y-block, but they're original equipment.
TN doesn't generally have lead sleds, period. Mine may be the only traditional sled in the state...:> )
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By miker - 10 Years Ago
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Kind of pricey, but they'd really work. Especially if you used the stock engine paint.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-ANSEN-FORD-FE-ALUMINUM-VALVE-COVERS-352-360-390-406-410-427-428-MR-GASKET-/171002506918?hash=item27d08b2ea6&vxp=mtr
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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They sure are purdy but at that price I think I'll pass and use the money to go faster.
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By slumlord444 - 10 Years Ago
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For my money a mild 292 with G heads, a mild cam, and '57 intake with a single 4 barrel and headers would run with or better than a 390 unless you spent a lot of money on the 390. Just my opinion from past experience. Used to out run stock 390's with a stock cam 292 back in the day.
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By Tom Compton - 10 Years Ago
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Can't imagine a hill in the US w a paved road my Y won't pull at highway speeds. Of course it has been "rebuilt" by Ted and has a beefed up T5 behind it.
292 block 312 crank and rods, bored .080, 317 CID, forged pistons, 113 headsMummert 284 cam. Ted didn't have his dyno when it was built but something over 300 HP.
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By speedpro56 - 10 Years Ago
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Try setting the timing at 12 degrees at idle even 14 if it starts easy and see if that helps. Make sure the damper has not slipped. The 12 degree mark should line up in the middle of one of the spokes on the damper pulley if it hasn't slipped. When the damper slips and the timing is set in a retarded position that can really make the engine lazy.
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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No damper, just a steel or cast iron crank pulley. I have initial set at 10* BTDC now. I'll try a little more when I get back from my trip next week. The distributor is a Cardone reman for a '64 F100. That being the case I'm wondering if the advance springs are too heavy.
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By charliemccraney - 10 Years Ago
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A 292 has a damper. From the front it does look like a solid pulley but there is a damping mass behind the pulley, you know what, here:
 Stock dampers left and right. You see the belt groove, then a small gap, then the damping mass, on which are the timing marks. Notice how the gap on the rusty one is wider? That one has probably slipped.
If your engine truly has no damper, then it could very well be a 239, which could explain the lack of power. Though If the late model distributor fit it's probably not a 239. It would be worthwhile to check the distributors advance curve, though it's probably not any worse than stock. Definitely do not assume.
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By Dobie - 10 Years Ago
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Upon further review...
It does have a dampener. Assuming that it has slipped, anybody have recommendations for a rebuilding service? The Damper Dudes get good reviews from the Scrub crowd. Any others out there worth consideration?
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By 57RancheroJim - 10 Years Ago
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e Damper Doctor is another, I've never used either. When I built my 292 I bought a new one, they come from Australia and seem top quality. I think Mummert has them, I got mine from Falcon Global on Ebay.
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By woodboatwayne - 10 Years Ago
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Had the same quandary with my 56 Ranchwagon 292 3spd. Elected to go 390 t85 od. I am saving the y block drive train for a future project. The ranchwagon cme with a 4.10 gear which was my biggest annoyance with the non od trans. It was really wound tight at highway speeds. I think the FE with OD and a 3.70 gear will be really neat on the road
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