|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
Hello all! My name is Nathan, 21 years old, and this is my first Y-Block build. I stuffed this engine in my little '31 Model A coupe my dad and I built together. I have a 1960 292 block, bored .060 over, off set crank ground to the 312 stroke (314ci). 11:1 compression, cam is a clay smith cam, 240 duration @.050 and .485 valve lift. '57 ECZ-G heads. FRESHLY BUILT ENGINE. All new parts from John Mummert. Only have close to 2,000 miles on the car. Anyway...
Seems to be when I come to kind of a hard stop (I'm not locking the tires up) or make a hard left turn the oil pressure drops down to around 10-20 psi then jumps right back up between 50-60 psi. I am honestly not sure if this is a new occurring thing or has been happening but I just noticed it. I watch the oil pressure gauge like a hawk so I'm surprised if it had been happening and I haven't noticed it. before. Course typically when you're coming to a stop or hard stop there is a reason and you're paying attention the road haha. I'm running 10w-40 high zinc Royal Purple HPS oil. The oil level is good, and the sending unit isn't bad, those are the things I checked first. I have a rear sump truck oil pan on the engine. Is this a normal thing? Should I be concerned? Obviously the oil is going away from the pickup when I make these actions, just wondering if something possibly fell off the pickup?
Thanks in advance for all the advice!
-Nathan
|
|
By Gene Purser - 8 Years Ago
|
Welcome Nathan! That is a good looking car! I'm sorry I can't give you any input on the oil pressure. Can you give us some information about the headers on the engine and how the exhaust if configured? Also, what kind of wheels are they?
Thanks, Gene
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
Thank you Gene! And yes, we made Tri Y Lakestyle headers. The object of tri Y headers is for the two exhaust valves that feed any one of those Y's to be as far apart on the firing order as possible. That increases the velocity of the exhaust gases leaving through the header, because there is only exhaust from one valve going through any Y at any time. Then they all come together in the third Y. We did Tri Y for low end torque. The headers are different on both sides cause of the firing order.
And the wheels are '40 Ford, the original wheels off my dads '40 coupe.
|
|
By 57RancheroJim - 8 Years Ago
|
I would try adding an extra quart of oil and see what happens. The pan may not have any baffling and the pick up is being uncovered.. Love your Y powered car :-)
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Thank you very much!! And I added a quart, seemed like it helped. I talked to Tim McMaster, he said most stock pans don't have baffles and he usually makes one from a piece of 10ga and welds it in there. I'll probably do the same. But it's not a big deal that it's happening right?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
I've experienced that while coming to a stop, with a truck pan with no baffle. I never noticed it happening while turning, though. When stopping, it didn't need to be a hard stop for it to happen.
There are also different oil pick ups and one of them is designed quite terribly, in my opinion, possibly making the problem worse.
I switched to a factory baffled pan but also added a gate to the baffle so now practically no oil can move away from the sump while stopping. That fixed the pressure drop while coming to a stop and that was with the pickup I consider to be terrible.
I can add some pictures and I probably have a spare pan for measurements, if needed.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
Hm maybe I'll end up doing that. But I just remembered the pan I have on this engine does have the baffle in it. I remember seeing it. I think I'm going to pull the pan off tomorrow and check things out. Oil pressure gauge seems to be doing a lot of bouncing around all of sudden, like something is loose? Always stays between 50-70psi though. Only time it goes down to 10-20psi is when I stop hard.
Thanks for the advice!! I appreciate it
|
|
By MoonShadow - 8 Years Ago
|
|
I sent a set of truck headers done like that to Ted Eaton for the big dyno test series. As I recall he said they flowed the best of all tested. Should work.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
That's very good to hear!!
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
They were one of the better headers, but not the best.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic55379.aspx?
Check your oil pump bolts, and the inlet tube nut. If any of those are loose, you can have pressure problems.
|
|
By Florida_Phil - 8 Years Ago
|
That is one very cool car and the Y Block fits it perfectly. Love it!
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Nice! If anything I mainly just like the looks of them, haven't seen a y-block with that set up... yet! 😉 Also we made a full exhaust system running out the back with a cross over pipe. But okay sounds good, I will also check that out. Thank you!!
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Thank you!! That Y-block definitely catches some attention. Everyone usually expects it to have a lame SBC in it... yuck
|
|
By Ted - 8 Years Ago
|
|
NathanxStewart (8/24/2017)
...Seems to be when I come to kind of a hard stop (I'm not locking the tires up) or make a hard left turn the oil pressure drops down to around 10-20 psi then jumps right back up between 50-60 psi. I am honestly not sure if this is a new occurring thing or has been happening but I just noticed it. I watch the oil pressure gauge like a hawk so I'm surprised if it had been happening and I haven't noticed it. before. Course typically when you're coming to a stop or hard stop there is a reason and you're paying attention the road haha. I'm running 10w-40 high zinc Royal Purple HPS oil. The oil level is good, and the sending unit isn't bad, those are the things I checked first. I have a rear sump truck oil pan on the engine. Is this a normal thing? Should I be concerned? Obviously the oil is going away from the pickup when I make these actions, just wondering if something possibly fell off the pickup? -Nathan
I see no mention on exactly how much oil you’re carrying. The pickup and light truck oil pans requires a minimum of six quarts of oil including the oil filter. The rear sump pan for the HD engines requires a minimum of seven quarts of oil including the filter.
As mentioned, installing a baffle in the ‘non-baffled’ oil pans helps to control the forward movement of the oil when stopping.
Here’s the link to a past thread showing some of the various rear sump oil pans.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/FindPost74375.aspx
Here’s the link where Charlie installed a baffle and a gate in his oil pan.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic1469-1.aspx
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
Thank you for the response Ted! I had 6 quarts in it, added another quart when I noticed this starting to happen. Didn't seem to make a difference though. Okay I definitely have the truck pick up pan. Looks just like the one in the middle of the photos. Gauge seems to be doing a lot of bouncing around, stays between 50-70psi while driving/idling. I wonder if I might have a bad connection. Is it possible for the pickup to come loose? Think it's worth it to take the pan off and look in there?
Thanks again!
-Nathan
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
Sure, you could have a bad connection.
50-70 psi even at idle does suggest a faulty gauge or sender. That is high for idle, particularly if the oil is up to operating temperature
I would exhaust all other possibilities before pulling the pan.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
But the oil pressure going down when I come to a hard stop is definitely the oil moving forward away from the pickup right? It has a high volume pump. It's about 60psi cold at idle then about 50psi warm at idle. 2,000 rpms on the freeway it varies from 60psi-70psi.
Pulling the pan on this car is not a difficult job at all! We built it so there was absolutely nothing underneath the engine, no interference.
The pan for sure has a baffle, I remember seeing it now. I guess it's possible it's been doing this and I just now noticed?
|
|
By 2721955meteor - 8 Years Ago
|
|
the later truck engines had a trap door where the oil flow to the front was restricted ,on a huge so going forward no restrictions.my 49 merc with a y has such a pan it came from a 5ton truck. this issue was common in 56 toto 60s 1/2 tons.
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
It's not so much the difficulty involved in removing the pan as the extra work to do so, particularly if it turns out not to be the problem. If you are positive that you have the baffled pan and this just began to occur, then I would not suspect the oil pan and I would investigate everything else before pulling it to check. Checking bolts and fittings and trying another gauge are much easier by comparison
Yes, it is also possible that you have just now noticed. I've done that myself.
It sounds like you have an electric gauge. It could be that there is a bad electrical connection and stopping causes a wire to move in such a way that sender output is altered and shows a decrease in oil pressure that is actually not happening..
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Good to know! Mines a '60
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Hooked up a mechanical gauge, didn't bounce around like how my electrical gauge does. Stayed at 50psi at idle and when I would eat on it or be at a steady 2,000rpms it was in the 60-70psi range. But it still dropped off when I came to a stop. So it's not an electrical issue. I also did like you said, checked my oil pump bolts, they were good, I checked the nut for the tube to the pump, it was a little loose but didn't change anything. I'm going to go ahead and pull the pan off and look in there anyway. One of those things where you won't feel better or be able to sleep unless you do it hahah. But like I said, it's possible I haven't noticed it doing that until now. I just want to look in there and make sure nothing is wrong with the pickup. If there isn't then I guess put it back together and continue driving it right?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Which gasket set was used? The Fel-Pro pickup tube seals can be problematic. They are made with metal and rubber, I had one recently that had manufacturing defects on the metal portions, preventing a seal, causing a significant pressure drop.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Funny you say that... cause I was wondering if that could've had something to do with it. Mine looks worn out, plus it was leaking. That may be why the pressure dropped. But everything else looks good. I guess I'll just deal with the oil sloshing forward when I come to a stop? That's not really a bad thing is it?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Anything that results in an abnormal pressure drop is not good. I don't think a bad inlet tube seal would cause what you are experiencing but it should not leak, so there may be an unrelated issue there.
|
|
By miker - 8 Years Ago
|
|
If you've got good pressure the rest of the time, I'd say it's sloshing oil forward. I've had other motors do that. Just looking at the differences in the "step" of my tbird pan vs the truck pan in my 32, I'd say the truck pan would be more susceptible to that. A baffle will probably fix it. Charlie's also done a bunch of work on the pans so go find his posts. I seem to remember something about some pickups not being low enough or something. My 32 has electric SW gauges and they are heavily dampened so I don't see that. Doesn't mean it isn't happening.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Well I shouldn't say the pressure dropped, it's at 50psi. Just seems like it was always between 50-60 psi at idle (warm) before and now it's right at 50psi at idle warm. It wasn't much of a leak. If you wiped your finger under it you got oil on your hand but it never dripped
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
Yes always have good pressure! It only goes down when I brake hard. It has a baffle and it looks like it's as low as it can go without cutting the oil off. Yeah I saw the post with the hinge! Very cool idea.
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
I've done a lot more since the hinge. Info about pickups and more is in this thread, http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic122644.aspx
Some pictures aren't showing up because of the Photobucket issue.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
Charlie, you mentioned the inlet tube bushing could be not sealing and sucking in air.
Let me get you up to date. I took the pan off nothing seemed visibly wrong, put it back on, when I was installing the pan I couldn't get the inlet tube to line up in the pump, so I pulled down on the tube a bit and it moved and went right into the pump. I didn't think much of it. Started the car had no oil pressure at idle. Which I just knew that was not accurate. Took all back apart turns out the pick had moved up. Got the pick up as close to the bottom of the panas I could get it and bent the inlet tube to where it'll go into the oil pump easily. Put it all back together, oil pressure went up to about 20-25psi at idle. Still not what I had before (50psi). So I'm thinking, the only other thing I changed was the inlet tube bushing. And it's a fel pro one with the metal rings. Does this seem like it's sucking in too much air and causing my pressure to be low?
Thanks again!
|
|
By 57RancheroJim - 8 Years Ago
|
Maybe a piece of the bushing or some other foreign particle got into the pump relief valve?
|
|
By charliemccraney - 8 Years Ago
|
There is a sort of pilot within the pump that the tube fits into. You may have been hitting the taper just before that pilot, making it seem like things were not aligned. Loosening the nut which holds the pickup in the pan also helps.
If you have assembled something once with no problem and took it apart with no apparent problem, yet you find that you are having to force it back into position during reassembly, then there is probably some other issue preventing it from going together correctly. Never, ever force anything unless you are absolutely certain that it is what must be done.
Bending that tube is not a good idea unless it is done in a controlled manner. If you make a bend on the outside of the pan, you have to be absolutely certain that no movement occurs within the pan while making the bend. Otherwise, you change the relation of the pickup within the pan and that can have a detrimental effect on oil pressure by placing the pickup too close to the floor or pulling it out of the oil.
Depending on how it is now bent, it may not be concentric with the pump which may pull the seal slightly one way or another, preventing a good seal.
One thing you can try to see where your pickup is now located is to put modeling clay in the bottom of the pan, put everything together like normal then pull it back off and observe the imprint. You can then measure the imprint to determine the clearance to the pan floor. The problem with doing that with a Y block is that it is hard to fit the pan and pickup without moving the pickup, which would make a false imprint into the clay.
If you are good with math measuring and have the appropriate tools, you can measure the location of the oil pump inlet in relation to the pan rail and use that to setup the pickup in the pan just as it would be when installed on the engine, being sure to take into consideration the gasket thickness. Then you can see exactly where pickup is positioned. This will not work if you are not confident in your math skills or cannot get accurate measurements. The oil pan's rail must also be perfectly flat for this to work.
It may be easier to get another pickup, install it with a rubber seal and go from there.
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
I put the old best gasket bushing back in, oil pressure went back to 50-60psi at idle. The fel pro bushing was too big and I'm guessing was sucking in air. Seems to be good now!
|
|
By NathanxStewart - 8 Years Ago
|
|
I bent the tube on the bench. I bent it a little and kept testing it on the car and bending it a little at each time until it went in easy while keeping the pick up level with the bottom of the pan. I read in your one thread that the fel pro bushings were too big. That's what my problem was, put the old bushing I had in it before and it's a best gasket bushing. I also saw Ted say he puts grease around them, I did the same. Fit a lot more snug and the pressure is right back to where it was. We're all good now! Thanks again for all the tips, really helped a lot!
|