Pushing coolant


http://209.208.111.198/Topic138543.aspx
Print Topic | Close Window

By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
Got a 292 y-block bored .060 over, clay smith cam .485 valve lift, 240 duration @ .050. '57 posted heads, pressurized rockers, with 11-1 compression. Heads were completely redone and checked for cracks and everything before putting them on the engine when it was built.

My problem is I'm pushing coolant when I'm turning the rpms up high. I'll be going down the freeway in 3rd gear at 3,000-3,500rpms and get on it to pass traffic at about 4,000 rpms it'll push coolant. And it's not always consistent. I put roughly 80 miles on it over the weekend pulling a trailer and it never did it. Been doing it ever since I've fired up the engine for the first time and have about 6,500 miles on it. I've tried restrictor washers, different pressure caps, and I've made sure they actually seal good. I have a moroso 14-18 pressure cap on it now. Box says it's a 16lb cap. Put thermostats in it. Vacuum sealed the system hoping to get air pockets out. Would an air pocket do that? And it doesn't run hot. I have a 160 thermostat in it now and it stays 180-185 degrees all the time, in traffic, going down the freeway, etc.

I've pressurized the system checking the head gaskets, never lost pressure. Don't have coolant in the cylinders after sitting over night. No coolant in the oil or oil in coolant. Made sure the headgaskets weren't installed backwards. The corner of the gasket is sticking out of the heads up front towards the intake like they should be. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance!
By MoonShadow - 7 Years Ago
How much coolant are you losing? Is it out the cap or the overflow? If it only loses a little bit it should be alright. The Y-block I a low pressure system and should have a 6-8 :b rating. If it only happens when you fill the radiator and make your first high rpm run does it continue to lose water. If not and its not losing too much or overheating then its seeking its sweet spot. On a lot of older vehicles with open circulation systems if you fill them to the top they will puke out some. As long as the plates are covered and you can see water over them it should be fine. Hope this is your worry and the advice helps.
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
Well it's spit out enough to fill my overflow bottle and overflow out of the bottle. I know losing a little bit is okay and it's suppose to do it that but it's not a little bit. Cause I did start to think I was overfilling it. I stopped refilling it then it just got to the point where it'd just spit out coolant then I'd be low on coolant and it'd start to run hot.

But I also must say my filling point is lower than the radiator. The system my dad and I designed is different. It has a separate filling reservoir. I don't fill up the top tank on the radiator. So I'm thinking I'm getting a little steam bubble up too and it pushes out the coolant when I turn up the RPMS. So I think I'm planning on putting some kind of bleeder or plug on the top tank to be able to let air out.

Does that seem like it could be it?

Here's how the system is designed so you get a better idea of what it looks like. Think I just have some more engineering to do.





Thank you for the suggestion!!
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
That first one looks all weird haha

By 56Roger - 7 Years Ago

Sorry, but that system is designed to leak. Speedway used to sell (maybe still does) T-bucket radiator and shells designed similar to that, without the tank yours has. The bottom of the fill tube was right at the bottom of the expansion tank. It would leak a little every time the engine got warm. I fixed it by putting the filler at the top of the radiator, accessible through a hole in the top of the shell. Like they were designed.

The cap needs to be above the highest point of the system, with a little room for expansion. Wherever it is located.

The coolant in your system is under pressure out the cap because it sure appears to be about level with the upper level of the coolant in the radiator. It's just doing the only thing it can do. Liquids don't compress. The pressurized pocket above the cap is pushing the liquid out.

Probably nothing wrong with anything else

By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
Right, that's what I'm thinking it is. So you think a steam pocket is causing it to push out coolant then? All of this was custom fabricated by my dad and I, just weren't thinking about that when we made it! Haha oh well, not that big of a deal to put a filler on the top tank
By 56Roger - 7 Years Ago
Usually the top of remote expansion tanks are a little higher than the top of the radiator, so that the level of the liquid in the tank is equal to the level of the liquid in the radiator. So that the pressure builds in the upper part of the expansion tank, underneath the cap. Just like it would if the expansion tank was at the top of the radiator like they used to be. There has to be room somewhere for expansion of the coolant. It is no tiny amount. Your tank is mostly just part of the coolant system. Looks like little to no room for expansion once the normal level of the coolant fills most of the tank.
By miker - 7 Years Ago
Cool thought, but it doesn’t seem to be working. How about something like this, it would just require some hose work. If it solves the problem you could work out a solution you liked better.

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/53098/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710676818&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=39714413703&CATCI=pla-457013475083&CATARGETID=230006180040357466&cadevice=t&jegspromo=nonbrand&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxd-B7d7K3AIVBcpkCh2BCwtQEAQYESABEgJGlPD_BwE

By KULTULZ - 7 Years Ago
"But I also must say my filling point is lower than the radiator. The system my dad and I designed is different. It has a separate filling reservoir. I don't fill up the top tank on the radiator. So I'm thinking I'm getting a little steam bubble up too and it pushes out the coolant when I turn up the RPMS. So I think I'm planning on putting some kind of bleeder or plug on the top tank to be able to let air out."

Do you have a coolant overflow/recovery tank in the system in addition to the expansion tank shown?

It would be a shame to have to remove that expansion tank (the inline filler mentioned is the quickest out without having to modify the grille shell).
By 56Roger - 7 Years Ago
My unasked for opinion is the simplest all around best looking system is the one the car came with. Any other system only adds more unnecessary clutter and results in a system that doesn't work as well as prior to the modification. I have a mostly original (sheet metal wise) Y-block powered 32 5w, see the radiator and all every day. I see nothing objectionable about the original form. Still using an original radiator by the way.  

The glass T-bucket I had was a Total Performance unit from before the sale to Speedway. Apparently they had the same idea of cleaning up the top of the shell also. Didn't work there either. The way I fixed it, with the cap I used, the top of cap was barely above the top of the shell. Actually was cleaner looking than before because there was no filler neck sticking out the back of the expansion tank. And I was able to have probably about 1 1/2 quarts more coolant in the system. 

The original type system was better on every count in my book. 
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
miker (7/31/2018)
Cool thought, but it doesn’t seem to be working. How about something like this, it would just require some hose work. If it solves the problem you could work out a solution you liked better.

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/53098/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710676818&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=39714413703&CATCI=pla-457013475083&CATARGETID=230006180040357466&cadevice=t&jegspromo=nonbrand&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxd-B7d7K3AIVBcpkCh2BCwtQEAQYESABEgJGlPD_BwE






Not a bad idea. I think I'm going to get an aluminum 90 degrees elbow to weld to the top tank and fill it there. Help get all of the air out and just never take the cap off the current fill spot. Thank you for the advice!
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
KULTULZ (8/1/2018)
"But I also must say my filling point is lower than the radiator. The system my dad and I designed is different. It has a separate filling reservoir. I don't fill up the top tank on the radiator. So I'm thinking I'm getting a little steam bubble up too and it pushes out the coolant when I turn up the RPMS. So I think I'm planning on putting some kind of bleeder or plug on the top tank to be able to let air out."

Do you have a coolant overflow/recovery tank in the system in addition to the expansion tank shown?

It would be a shame to have to remove that expansion tank (the inline filler mentioned is the quickest out without having to modify the grille shell).




I do have a coolant overflow bottle! It'll spit coolant out of the neck, fill the overflow, then will suck back in like it suppose to do. Problem is I just lose too much coolant when it spits it out.

I'm thinking welding an aluminum 90 degree elbow piece of tubing to the top tank and fill it there. Also put a plug on it, and loosen the plug to let air out while burping the system
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
56Roger (8/1/2018)
My unasked for opinion is the simplest all around best looking system is the one the car came with. Any other system only adds more unnecessary clutter and results in a system that doesn't work as well as prior to the modification. I have a mostly original (sheet metal wise) Y-block powered 32 5w, see the radiator and all every day. I see nothing objectionable about the original form. Still using an original radiator by the way.  

The glass T-bucket I had was a Total Performance unit from before the sale to Speedway. Apparently they had the same idea of cleaning up the top of the shell also. Didn't work there either. The way I fixed it, with the cap I used, the top of cap was barely above the top of the shell. Actually was cleaner looking than before because there was no filler neck sticking out the back of the expansion tank. And I was able to have probably about 1 1/2 quarts more coolant in the system. 

The original type system was better on every count in my book. 




I gotcha, and you're not wrong! I just try too hard to be different and sometimes gets me in a little trouble! 😉 Hahah.
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
I believe my next step is to get a piece of aluminum tubing that's a 90 degree elbow, put a hole at the highest point of the top tank and weld the elbow there. There for I can fill it there then just put a plug on it. But still use my current fill neck with a pressure cap. Just won't fill there.

After what everyone has suggested to me it seems like that'll help get any steam pocket out of the system and it can flow.

Sound like it will work to you guys?

Thanks again for all of the suggestions!
By 56Roger - 7 Years Ago
Of course you can absolutely do whatever you wish. 

But it seems to me whatever it all is you are going to add is not going to change anything except to increase complexity. The coolant level will be the same or higher than it was. If the little tank and pressure cap remain the same as they were then the pressure in the system will still cause a leak there same as before. 

Makes no sense to add parts to bleed off pressure. It's there for a reason. I live in central Florida. 2 Y-blocks, both run 7lb. caps. Never any problems on either of them. Not at all sure you need the 16lb. cap you are running. If you want less pressure try a lower pressure cap.

But the cap simply needs to be at the highest point of the system with enough space somewhere to account for expansion of the coolant. As I said at first, that system is designed to leak . That's why it hasn't been fixed with everything you have tried so far. The actual problem has not gotten any attention.

No real point trying to re-invent something that's been figured out for a very long time. The cooling systems for engines started out real simple and they worked well. Especially on hot rods. Expansion tank on top, low or no pressure cap. As time went on they became more and more complex for all kinds of reasons. Not many (there are a few) of which have anything to do with hot rods. But if that's what you're after go for it.

Early 60s Y-block Fords used expansion tanks. And the FE's too. Find one or find good pictures of some and copy what they did if you can with the placement of your parts. Don't think you be able to. Or want to. And who needs it anyway.

That's all I got.
By miker - 7 Years Ago
My 32 has a “filler neck” like your talking about adding, but it’s got enough radiator to manage the expansion with a small overflow/return bottle. It’s mounted low, like most vehicles. While I agree the system isn’t set up to allow proper fill/expansion, it might also be your lacking volume or cooling capacity. I understand your not afraid of fabricating something, but I’d stick on the filler neck up high and just connect it with hose. Then I’d live with the ugly until I knew the problem was solved. If it isn’t, there’s more work to do. It will also let you jury rig a catch can in and get some idea of the expansion volume you need to keep the system full.

I don’t know if this is helpful, but years ago I had a fairly new Volvo that used a pressurized overflow tank. The radiator had a sealed cap, just like earlier models had a pressure cap. The overflow tube connected to a tank mounted alongside the radiator and it had the pressure cap. Kind of clear plastic, it was marked minimum and maximum. The only time you unsealed the radiator was to drain to flush it, otherwise it was done thru the tank cap. I wasn’t real hot about a plastic tank being pressurized, but like most things Volvo in the 60’s it just worked. It took a while to bleed the air out if you started from empty, but part of that was the heater was higher than the radiator.

Once you know you do have cooling capacity, you can fab a pretty solution, maybe still using your expansion tank.

This picture is of a couple year newer Volvo, and has a pressure release it looks like on the radiator. Mine didn’t, just a sealed cap.
But it was what I could steal off the net.

By 56Roger - 7 Years Ago
miker (8/1/2018)
My 32 has a “filler neck” like your talking about adding, but it’s got enough radiator to manage the expansion with a small overflow/return bottle. It’s mounted low, like most vehicles. While I agree the system isn’t set up to allow proper fill/expansion, it might also be your lacking volume or cooling capacity. I understand your not afraid of fabricating something, but I’d stick on the filler neck up high and just connect it with hose. Then I’d live with the ugly until I knew the problem was solved. If it isn’t, there’s more work to do. It will also let you jury rig a catch can in and get some idea of the expansion volume you need to keep the system full.

I don’t know if this is helpful, but years ago I had a fairly new Volvo that used a pressurized overflow tank. The radiator had a sealed cap, just like earlier models had a pressure cap. The overflow tube connected to a tank mounted alongside the radiator and it had the pressure cap. Kind of clear plastic, it was marked minimum and maximum. The only time you unsealed the radiator was to drain to flush it, otherwise it was done thru the tank cap. I wasn’t real hot about a plastic tank being pressurized, but like most things Volvo in the 60’s it just worked. It took a while to bleed the air out if you started from empty, but part of that was the heater was higher than the radiator.

Once you know you do have cooling capacity, you can fab a pretty solution, maybe still using your expansion tank.

This picture is of a couple year newer Volvo, and has a pressure release it looks like on the radiator. Mine didn’t, just a sealed cap.
But it was what I could steal off the net.



I have an 84 MB with a similar setup. The radiator itself has NO cap. The plastic expansion tank is mounted on the fender well with the pressure cap higher than everything else. In fact nothing in the engine compartment is higher than that cap. The Volvo shows pretty much the same thing. Marked with "min" and "max". The "min" mark is about 1/3 the way up the tank, to be checked when the coolant is cool only. At cool temps the level in the tank is the same as in the radiator (water seeks it's own level) and the rest of the tank is for expansion.

The placement of the hoses from the expansion tank is important. There is a 3/8" or so (10mm) hose from the top of the upper tank of the radiator to an upper point on the expansion tank that is just below the level of the pressure cap. The Volvo shows this as well. Not exactly what I would call a "pressure release" but in a sense that is what it is doing. Not getting released out of the system but released to a different part of the system to equalize it. Likely no coolant is ever "flowing" through this hose. A bit may cross over now and then, say in spirited driving. Call it a balance tube. The hose from bottom of the expansion tank is about 3/4" (19mm) and it goes to the bottom of the radiator, right next to the lower hose in this case. And then there is the usual little hose from just above the seal of the pressure cap in case something bad happens. Sprays it around the lower engine compartment instead of the upper part. Sort of.

The small upper hose allows the pressure (whatever it is) to equalize between the radiator and the expansion tank. The larger lower hose provides an easy path for the coolant to rise and fall with expansion as necessary. The larger hose mitigates any problems draining the radiator as well. There is no "flow" through the expansion tank during operation, only in and out cycling with engine temps.

I think all systems provide for these functions, one way or another. On an old system it all happens inside the radiator with no more parts necessary. Modern systems have varied means but they all do the same thing. Keep the cap higher than the level of the coolant at all times. Allow for expansion and a way to suck the coolant back in as it cools down after operation. All without leaks anywhere. If any shop built cooling system can do these things by whatever means it should work fine. Hundreds of millions of cars running around to prove it.

Edit: My understanding is the expansion tanks came about at least partly (mostly?) because of the designer's desires to get the hood lines lower. Get that tall radiator out of there. Along the same reasons for the slant six.
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
56Roger (8/1/2018)
Of course you can absolutely do whatever you wish. 

But it seems to me whatever it all is you are going to add is not going to change anything except to increase complexity. The coolant level will be the same or higher than it was. If the little tank and pressure cap remain the same as they were then the pressure in the system will still cause a leak there same as before. 

Makes no sense to add parts to bleed off pressure. It's there for a reason. I live in central Florida. 2 Y-blocks, both run 7lb. caps. Never any problems on either of them. Not at all sure you need the 16lb. cap you are running. If you want less pressure try a lower pressure cap.

But the cap simply needs to be at the highest point of the system with enough space somewhere to account for expansion of the coolant. As I said at first, that system is designed to leak . That's why it hasn't been fixed with everything you have tried so far. The actual problem has not gotten any attention.

No real point trying to re-invent something that's been figured out for a very long time. The cooling systems for engines started out real simple and they worked well. Especially on hot rods. Expansion tank on top, low or no pressure cap. As time went on they became more and more complex for all kinds of reasons. Not many (there are a few) of which have anything to do with hot rods. But if that's what you're after go for it.

Early 60s Y-block Fords used expansion tanks. And the FE's too. Find one or find good pictures of some and copy what they did if you can with the placement of your parts. Don't think you be able to. Or want to. And who needs it anyway.

That's all I got.




Okay so what if I weld an elbow at the highest point on the top tank of the radiator with a neck and a pressure cap, do you think I’d get away with leaving my current fill point (the fill tank) and just cap it off? Or would the tank still cause problems? As in not let the coolant flow smoothly through the system
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
miker (8/1/2018)
My 32 has a “filler neck” like your talking about adding, but it’s got enough radiator to manage the expansion with a small overflow/return bottle. It’s mounted low, like most vehicles. While I agree the system isn’t set up to allow proper fill/expansion, it might also be your lacking volume or cooling capacity. I understand your not afraid of fabricating something, but I’d stick on the filler neck up high and just connect it with hose. Then I’d live with the ugly until I knew the problem was solved. If it isn’t, there’s more work to do. It will also let you jury rig a catch can in and get some idea of the expansion volume you need to keep the system full.

I don’t know if this is helpful, but years ago I had a fairly new Volvo that used a pressurized overflow tank. The radiator had a sealed cap, just like earlier models had a pressure cap. The overflow tube connected to a tank mounted alongside the radiator and it had the pressure cap. Kind of clear plastic, it was marked minimum and maximum. The only time you unsealed the radiator was to drain to flush it, otherwise it was done thru the tank cap. I wasn’t real hot about a plastic tank being pressurized, but like most things Volvo in the 60’s it just worked. It took a while to bleed the air out if you started from empty, but part of that was the heater was higher than the radiator.

Once you know you do have cooling capacity, you can fab a pretty solution, maybe still using your expansion tank.

This picture is of a couple year newer Volvo, and has a pressure release it looks like on the radiator. Mine didn’t, just a sealed cap.
But it was what I could steal off the net.





I do have an overflow down low and it does suck the coolant back in (sometimes). I’m thinking I might do that inline filler neck deal and by pass the filling reservoir I currently have to test it and see what happens. I’m just wondering if I could get away with welding an elbow up high with a filler neck and pressure cap and still use the filling reservoir tank where it’s at with a cap on it? Or would it just continue to spew out there because when the rpms go up the flow increases and since its passing through the tank/ hose would it push past the cap cause the flow is increasing and causing pressure?
By miker - 7 Years Ago
I guess what I’d do is put in the inline cap and eliminate the tank for now. It’s the easiest way to find out I’d the cooling system works. You can run a hose to the catch can, verify it’s got enough volume, and make sure the vehicle cools. That way you've got a baseline that “works” for minimal cost and effort. Then you can do what you like, and if it doesn’t “work” take another look at the design.

Like Roger points out, simple is probably the best.
By Kahuna - 7 Years Ago
My 32 is setup as Miker mentioned with the fill on the top tank offset. It works great.
I also have an overflow tank that works well. I run a 12 # cap
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
miker (8/2/2018)
I guess what I’d do is put in the inline cap and eliminate the tank for now. It’s the easiest way to find out I’d the cooling system works. You can run a hose to the catch can, verify it’s got enough volume, and make sure the vehicle cools. That way you've got a baseline that “works” for minimal cost and effort. Then you can do what you like, and if it doesn’t “work” take another look at the design.

Like Roger points out, simple is probably the best.




Okay, sounds good! I’m going to test out that inline cap and go from there. Thank you!
By NathanxStewart - 7 Years Ago
Kahuna (8/2/2018)
My 32 is setup as Miker mentioned with the fill on the top tank offset. It works great.
I also have an overflow tank that works well. I run a 12 # cap




Sounds good, I think I just gotta do some refiguring!