engine dies


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By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
55 vickey, 272, holley on a 57 intake, Pertronix in a 58 distributor. Car was running sweet, all of a sudden it dies when I take my foot off the gas or even back off, seems fine on the highway, just can't slow down. HELP, Gary
By Pete 55Tbird - 17 Years Ago
Gary your chance of getting a right answer to whatever problem is directly linked to how well you describe what the problem is, when it occurs, and a LOT MORE INFORMATION from you. If you need help then please YOU DO MORE WORK. For all anyone can tell it might be death rays from MARS.
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
Ok Pete, point well taken. I drove the car to a car show Saturday, it ran fantastic. After the show I was leaving the parking lot when it hesitated, I stepped on the gas and off I went. When I backed off on the throttle for a curve, the engine died, I immediately floored it, it fired back up and kept running, as long as I had my foot in the carb, riding thru town was a nightmare, left foot on the break and right on the gas, or throw it into neutral (auto). I checked all the plugs today, they all look great, it's getting plenty of gas. As I was going 55 or 60 you could feel the engine surging. I'm thinking carb cuz of the reaction when I open the throttle plate. I took the distributor apart today, everything is working great. My next adventure will be to put the points back in and see what happens, or am I heading in the wrong direction. The car will not idle at all, the throttle plate has to be open for it to run at all. Hope this helps a little, thanx, Gary 
By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
Gary:

A few things come to mind at this point.  One, the secondary throttle plates are standing slightly open, essentially a huge vacuum leak that the idle circuit can't overcome.  If it did, the idle speed would be way too high.  Another thing could be clogged idle circuits.  Also, a broken lead in the distributor that intermittently makes and breaks as the vacuum advance moves the point plate back and forth.  Good luck.

John

By Ted - 17 Years Ago
You didn’t say which Holley but I’m assuming a four barrel.  Add to the list of items to check: the gasket between the throttle plate and the main body as any air sucking in at that point will disprupt idle circuitry flow.  Same goes for a ’57 and up Holley two barrel.
By davis - 17 Years Ago
i'd bet on a vacuum leak too.

check vac advance from carb to dist. also.

pcv system?

gasket at base of intake and carb.

rubber vac plug cracked on carb vac outlet?


By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
I did a complete vacuum check, everything checked out fine, finally I unhooked the vac advance, started it up and it's as sweet as ever. I think I had to do this in the spring also, sometimes the senior moments come in to fast. I checked the unit and if I apply a vacuum it moves the plate. For now I'll drive with just the mechanical until I can get a new unit. Thanx for all the help. Gary
By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Sounds as though you have too much initial advance, and/or need to hook the Distributor veccum line to "ported" source on the carburettor. That would be a vacuum source that is above the butterflies and not functional at idle. That way you'd still have the vacuum at cruise. I'd also recommend you recheck you timing with the vacuum line removed, it may have been set incorrectly with the dist vacuum still attached. Don't be surprised if the idle speed has to be reset after all this.
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
The car started acting up again yesterday, I took out the pertronix, put the points back in and its fine. I was timed in the upper teens with the pertronix in it and 15 vaccuum, now the timing is back to 8>9 and almost 18 on vaccuum. Got a little stumble off the line but I'll work that out. I've got the vaccuum advance hooked back up also, seems to be working fine.
By Ted - 17 Years Ago

Just curious as to whether your vacuum line for the distributor is hooked up to ported or direct vacuum? You may have said at which case I just overlooked it.  If hooked to the intake, the vacuum source will be direct vacuum but if hooked up on the carburetor, it could be either depending upon the port being used.

By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
It's hooked up direct, thats what the engine builder had me do.
By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Disconnect it, set you initial at about 12 degrees and then hook it to ported vacuum. Give that a try.
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
It's at 12, also my best vaccuum & at ported vaccuum. Still a terrible stumble when I take off. They just oiled the road and put down little pebbles so it'll be a couple days before I take it out for a good test cruise. I might be changing the secondary spring, I think it's opening to soon.
By Ted - 17 Years Ago
55vickey (9/8/2008)
Still a terrible stumble when I take off.  I might be changing the secondary spring, I think it's opening to soon.

I seriously doubt that the secondaries are trying to open right off of idle regardless of the secondary spring being used.  If you have a later model 4150 or 4160 Holley (you haven’t clarified exactly which carb yet), then the accelerator pump system is at the top of the list of items to check.  At full throttle, there should only be about 0.015-0.020” of additional movement or play before bottoming out the accelerator pump diaphragm.  Any more than this will just require adjusting the spring loaded screw and nut that’s the transition between moving parts and reducing the amount of clearance.  Also related to this is any present free play or looseness in the accelerator pump linkage at idle as this will be a stumble or dead spot whenever throttle opening is initially applied.  But all adjustments for this system are performed with the throttle arm in the full throttle position.

By davis - 17 Years Ago
couldnt a sloppy throttle shaft also cause this problem?

letting in too much air?

i doubt the pertronix unit is at fault.

when was the last time carb was rebuilt?
By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Ted's absolutely correct about the accel pump, But again, if the timing is set somewhat retarded, and you are using manifold vacuum, as soon as you crack the throttle, the distributor retards the timing. You'll have a serious flat spot or stumble. However, first, check the pump with the engine off. Remove the aircleaner and operate the throttle lever. You should have a pump shot almost as soon as you move the linkage. I would not do this running, if it back fires you'll lose your eyebrows. Also don't do it more than once or twice, you'll flood the engine and it'll be difficult to start.
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
It's a new carb, doesn't mean it can't be bad. Ever since I took the Pertronix out it's starting and running better than ever. Just touching the key starts it, just doggie on acceleration. With the Pertronix I was almost at 20 btdc, now I'm at 12 and it's running good, not as much vaccuum as I'd like but I'll keep tweaking.
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
Good shot of gas as soon as I hit it, but still stumbled. Got it at 12 degrees and ported vaccuum, I'll cruise a bit and see how it's acting.
By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
55 Vicky:

You haven't mentioned what trans you are running, but if it's the original Fordomatic, are you aware that it normally takes off in 2nd gear?  That makes for sluggish acceleration.  Try putting the shift lever in Lo and trying it.  Should be a big improvement in take off.

John

By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
It's the Fordo, I've been speedshifting these things since the early 60's, but even just a normal slow takeoff sucks. It idles great now, sounds good on the highway, just boggy. Would the RV cam have anything to do with it?
By Pete 55Tbird - 17 Years Ago
It is not your RV cam. You say that taking out the pertronix and putting the points back in makes your car start much faster. Have you considered that your carb problem MAY be electrical in nature? How is the engine block grounded to the frame? Try a jumper wire from the plus side of battery to the coil to eliminate the ignition switch. CAUTION NO NEUTAL SAFETY SWITHCH PROTECTION aginst starting in gear!!!! How old is the coil and are you using a ballast resistor sinch you replaced the pertronix. So many more questions to answer. Good luck Pete
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
The coil is only a couple of years old. Relatively new ballast resistor. With the pertronix I had to run almost 20 on the timing, took it out, went down to 12 and it runs good, the whole system is better without the Pertronix.
By MoonShadow - 17 Years Ago
I replaced a 1 month old coil at Columbus! It can happen! Chuck in NH
By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
With the Pertronix system, the little brain chip sets the "dwell" time to charge the coil - with your points, the point gap does. For those with a "Dwell/Tachometer" - you can hook it up to the negative side of the coil and read the difference. How long you let the coil "charge up" has everything to do with how hot the spark is. Old dual point systems run the dwell out to get better (longer) charge time - hotter spark. The Pertronix dwell is pretty much a fixed value based on how much current it can handle at idle.

The Pertronix instructions don't warn you to be sure the swivelling point plate you attached the unit to is securely grounded. The point systems have a little braided ground wire that grounds the moveable portion of the point plate to the fixed portion (that hopefully then carries the ground to the engine block). Did you retain the braided jumper when you fitted the Pertronix module? To get the greatest possible spark out of the coil, you want it running on the greatest voltage your "switch" (points or Pertronix) will tolerate and grounding to the best (lowest) ground you can find.

By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
I've got 3 ground points to the frame (old stock car days), the braided wire in the distributor is connected, I'm very confident in my electrical system. I think it's primarily just tweaking. With the points back in I feel like I have a viable starting point, accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative. O my O my, what will happen once the quads or deuces go on...........ain't gray yet.....but I can see it coming.
By Ted - 17 Years Ago

As Pete suggests, cam is likely not the problem but does need to be ruled out so here are more questions.  What’s the specs on the camshaft?  Was it degreed in or just installed counting the links in the chain?  And if degreed in, was more than one cylinder checked?  How’s the manifold vacuum at idle?

 

But back to the sluggishness.  The distributor could potentially benefit from some lighter springs so that the advance comes in earlier.  Especially if your distributor originally came out of a pickup or truck.
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
Not sure about the cam specs, I'll have to check with engine builder. I do know that it was degreed in. The guy builds racing motors and I pit for him on the circuit for enough years to know his quality of work and success with his engines is not an issue. The vac at idle is a steady 15, it goes up when I rev it. When I rev it in idle it revs very fast and smooth, just under load on acceleration is the stumble.
By Pete 55Tbird - 17 Years Ago
Gary at this point I know you are sick and tired of all these questions that you feel you have already answered. But what you KNOW and what we (I) KNOW may not be the same. You say car has 15 inches of vacuum at idle. Is this MANIFOLD VACUUM in gear or in neutral? Important difference, since with a R/V cam I would expect at least 18-20 inches. When you say the engine needed 20 timing with the Pertronix and 12 with the factory points WHAT does that mean? Is this BTDC? To get the best idle, the highest manifold vacuum, the best drivability, or something else? Did you call the Tech Support at Pertronix and ask their advice? I have a Pertronix that I have had for almost 10 years and if it died I would not go back to points. Your 4BBL holley is really a TWO BBL until you develop enough manifold vaccum to open the secondaries and if the carb is new what power valve is in it? Like I tried to say the better you define what is going on the more likely you will get an answer that solves the problem.
By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Gary,

           Really difficult to diagnose from words, but I'm begining to smell an electrical issue here. Check, double check and then recheck all the ignition stuff try another coil, make sure nothings loose, or grounding or separating inside the insulation. Quite honestly,most carburettor issue turn out to be electrical.

By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
The vac was at 20 btdc with the pertronix in it and it ran great, when I took the pertronix out it wouldn't start until I took it to 12 btdc, at which point it ran the best at idle and had the highest manifold vac. The car is in park when I take all my readings. As I said in my second post, it ran great until I left the car show, every time I took my foot off the gas it died, put my foot in the carb it fired back up but ran like hell. Couldn't get it to run until I unhooked the vac advance, plugged it off and it was ok, for a couple miles, then bad again. This is when I took the pertronix out. The vac advance was hooked up to manifold vac, now it's at ported vac. The car ran great with the pertronix in it, what happened to make it go bad I don't know but right now it's running and sounding good with the points in it and less timing. I'm gonna put a new coil in it and check out all the elecrical. I had the distributor out, all advance move good and all electrical connections are good. Finally got a good day so it'll go for a nice long ride today so I can see whats going on now under driving conditions. The specifics with the power valve I'm not sure, but like I said, it ran good for a long time, just all of a sudden it went bad. Gary
By 55vickey - 17 Years Ago
Just got back from a nice ride. Running great, the only issue was a little hesitation on passing and a little stumble on a quick takeoff. Starting better than ever. I checked the vac with a different guage, it read a little over 17. I'm gonna check it with another one this afternoon, ones gotta be whacky. I also found the cigarette lighter stuck in......don't see a correlation, but it's fixed now. Before I put it away for the winter I'm gonna put the Pertronix back in and see what happens. Gary
By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Check your vacuum diaphragm for leaks or cracks when you have a chance.