fuel pump volume impact on carb??


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By rgrove - 17 Years Ago
Hi all,

So I am still trying to get my 292 to run as well as it should...It bogs/stumbles when I floor it at speed and it kicks down... also a little "soft" in throttle response.

Running a holley 390 cfm 4 bbl, and have had to go up in primary jets, up in squirter size, and down in power valve.  (car has mummerts 270 cam), and pulls around 9 in hg vacuum at idle.  Comp check came out with everything ok, and close to each other (lost the sheet with specifics, but remember it was all ok...)  Motor has about 13k miles on it.

One of the things that I am going to do is to replace the fuel pump with a higher volume pump (around 80 gph)...will I need to rejet carb, etc, or is that independent?  Im assuming Ill have to adjust the float levels?  Any thoughts would be tremendously appreciated!  I am an impatient idiot when it comes to carb tuning!!

By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
Grove,

        Ted's probably still headed for Texas, so I'll attempt this one. If you have a decent fuel pump on the car now, a higher volume pump won't accomplish much. If the pump pressure is reasonable now, the float level will remain fine without changes. You really shouldn't try to fix pump issues with float or jetting changes. Better to get the pump issues corrected.

       If the 390 is a mechanical secondary version, you may just have to learn not to floor it  at too low an RPM. If it's a vacuum secondary carb, it may have been designed for a 4 or six cylinder and will require a secondary spring that's stiffer for your application. Your local speed shop sells them, or Summit/Jegs or even AutoZone can get the kits.

By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
I recently ended up messing around with this same issue after I "tuned" my 312 up a bit. Seemed to run out of fuel if you really got after it and then stayed on it. I don't think the common OEM size fuel pumps can deliver the necessary volume - and the needle and seat in my 600 Holley (now a 525 Demon) wasn't the best either. Al Frakes sent me a copy of his dyno sheet - that shows the "pounds per horsepower/hour" required when his engine was at about the 300 HP level. If you take a look at the Holley web site and check out their 80 GPH pump performance data for delivery versus line pressure (as the revs go up) - it is a decent match.

http://www.holley.com/data/Catalogs/Fuel%20Pumps.pdf

I also ended up buying a set a of stainless steel .130 needle and seat assemblies to get both a larger flow opening into the carb and end a "sticking" situation. They are listed for Alcohol use (Holley #'s 6-515-2 = .130 and 6-501-2 = .097) - but will work with gas as well. The .097 is equal to the Viton type now in your 390 cfm Holley - I went bigger on the advice of a friend who claims he has seen his engine (a BBC) instantaneously suck the bowl level way down during a quick rip on the dyno.  

Use the site search engine and try typing "Airtex 362". The Airtex pump is virtually identical to the Holley (no chrome though) and is sold by a number of aftermarket parts suppliers. It is normally listed for a Ford FE application - 390/428 HP engines. 

By rgrove - 17 Years Ago
Actually, the airtex is the pump that I bought, following your earllier thread!  I am replacing the oe pump because I dont use the vacuum ports anymore, and I figured this was a good chance to upgrade volume as well.

as for the carb, it is a vac secondary, designed for small v-8's.  I guess at the end of the day what I am confused about is the fact that so many people claim that these carbs bolt on and work great from the go, but mine has required a fair bit of tweaking....

Also, I have heard conflicting info on powervalve size.... some say to go at manifold vac +2, others say its vac -2... any thoughts or insight on this while Ive got some experts reading this??

THANKS AGAIN for any and all help, too.  There isnt anybody around here that knows carbs, etc. so I would really be lost without all the kind help on this forum!

By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
I've got an idea that the primary butterflies are too far open for the transfer slot - using the 390 carb with the lopey cam may be the culprit. When the carb is off the manifold (don't change the primary throttle stop screw while lifting it off) the "idle transfer slot" at the primary butterfly should show about as much height as width seen from the bottom. If that isn't enough air to run your engine at idle - it will have to be supplemented. One solution often espoused by Holley tuners is to drill some extra 1/8 dia holes, one in each primary butterfly. My personal favorite is to open the secondary throttles a bit by bending the stop tab under the vac secondary pot. There is also a small set screw there for the same purpose - but the carb has to be off the engine to use it - duh.

The number 6.5 power valve is ok for a stocker motor  - but I've had better luck with a 5.5 when the cam has some lope to it.

By Ted - 17 Years Ago
rgrove (9/2/2008)
Also, I have heard conflicting info on powervalve size.... some say to go at manifold vac +2, others say its vac -2... any thoughts or insight on this while I've got some experts reading this??

The power valve opening point needs to be below the actual manifold reading.  General rule is to have at least 2” Hg lower rating on the power valve than the actual vacuum reading.  If the engine is pulling 8½” at idle and in drive, then a 6½” rated power valve would be called for.  If the engine is pulling 13" at idle, then the 6½" power valve is still good but could be further tuned using a 8½" power valve if so desired.  If the engine is idling at 5” Hg, then you’d want a 3½” rated power valve.  Point here is that the power valve is closed at idle but in a position to open when the throttle is opened up enough where the additional fuel is of most benefit.

By rgrove - 17 Years Ago
Steve - I have checked that transfer slot.... it was as you describe.  I will double ckeck it in the next few days when I pull the carb off to install the kit to allow jetting of secondaries vs. the stock metering block....

Ted - Thanks very much for the thoughts on power valves.  I need to recheck the idle vacuum in gear and make sure that the power valve is correct before I do anything else... just to make sure.

Beyond that it sounds like maybe secondary spring?  Any thoughts on squirter size impact on this issue?  Im mstill concerned at the core about the fact that im having to go so far from stock on the carb - is that to be expected with the cam?  I really hate messing with carbs - mostly because I dont know what I am doing!

THANKS AGAIN to everyone for their help & advice so far! 

Also - I forgot to mention the car has new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and has a pertronix kit.  Problem was happening before replacement of the above items.  Thanks!

By rgrove - 17 Years Ago
AZ28 (9/2/2008)
I've got an idea that the primary butterflies are too far open for the transfer slot - using the 390 carb with the lopey cam may be the culprit. When the carb is off the manifold (don't change the primary throttle stop screw while lifting it off) the "idle transfer slot" at the primary butterfly should show about as much height as width seen from the bottom. If that isn't enough air to run your engine at idle - it will have to be supplemented. One solution often espoused by Holley tuners is to drill some extra 1/8 dia holes, one in each primary butterfly. My personal favorite is to open the secondary throttles a bit by bending the stop tab under the vac secondary pot. There is also a small set screw there for the same purpose - but the carb has to be off the engine to use it - duh.

The number 6.5 power valve is ok for a stocker motor  - but I've had better luck with a 5.5 when the cam has some lope to it.

 

I also have an edelbrock 500 carb in a box... any thoughts as to whether that would be a better carb to use with this cam?