By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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Any advantage to installing an MSD inition box #6AL in a 292 with 270s cam, 3x2s, headers. petronix ignition? I dont race it or anything like that. I have no idea. Just been told it will be better with it. Your 2 cents please. Thanks
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By Glen Henderson - 17 Years Ago
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I think that the petronix will give all the ignition power that you need for street use, unless you just have $700 that you don't know what to do with. The MSD looks kool, but I don't think it would be worth it in my opinion, with that said I have a complete MSD setup that I plan to use on the race car.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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If you use one of their Flamethrower coils and gap your plugs up to .045 to .060, you'll get a noticeably better low end and idle. You don't need the 6AL for the street, the 6A will work fine and is less expensive. I have a 6AL on the red '57, never loads up, even with cold plugs on the street. Also they're pretty bulletproof and plug mainteance drops way off. By the way, Crane make a version of the same thing for less money. Both are available with built in rev limiters in case you miss a shift. Not that you ever would but........
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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I never miss a shift. I got a automatic. LOL
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By Doug T - 17 Years Ago
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I think the MSD ingition a pretty good item and I have one triggered by the Pertronix unit. As Frank says it really fires under all running conditions and also helps start when flooded. You need to have really good quality wires and the large distributor cap is said to be helpful although I don't have that. It has one other fun feature, occasionally it will set off the alarm of an adjacent car when you start yours. It seems to affect 'vettes most and always makes me laugh!!
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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I am asking about the control box only. Not a distributor and all the rest. I was told just the box was a good thing to do. Just trying to find out. I was told unless I was racing the MSD dizzy was wasting money. what box do you have? BTW I am switching from 3x2s to a Blue thunder intake and a 390 CFM carb.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Earl, I don't have the distributor, just the box and the coil. I run an original Ford distributor with a Dura spark setup. The main feature of an MSD or a Crane is that at lower RPM's, below 3000 or so. it fires the plug 6-8 times per cycle. This reduces misfires and helps low end torque. Do you have to have it, no. But if you put one on, you won't ever want to take it off. Again, look at a 6a or the Crane unit, they are less expensive than the more common 6AL, which has vibration proofing for race cars.
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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Summit has their own brand. Any knowledge with theirs? Should I stick with known product?
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By Glen Henderson - 17 Years Ago
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I juess that I should put my glasses on before I try to answer a post, I misread your question and though you were asking about replacing the dist with a MSD unit. My bad!
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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Thats cool. Your answer sounded as if you were talking about the diz. Wanted to be sure. I do not want the msd dizzy for sure. I am just ignorant when it comes to the msd ignition boxes. Thanks Frank do you have a part # for the coil?
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By speedpro56 - 17 Years Ago
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Frank and I have the same setup (6AL with ford dura spark) and all I can say is I'm putting one in my 56 merc conv as well because it WORKS better than anything else I've tried.
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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what about your coil ? msd or other?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
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I don't have an MSD on my Y motor - but the 6A on my 442 has been around for ten or twelve years without a hiccup. The multi-spark feature made the motor idle smoother immediately upon install - and jacked up the mileage by 1 mpg instantly. The CD systems will fire a cylinder just about no matter what's in there. Use a coil spec'd for use with a capacitive discharge system - in this application they serve a slightly different purpose than we are used to with the inductive sparkerizers - the CD uses them as a step up transformer - like a 100:1 step up - so get one made for the purpose.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Earl, Steve's trying to tell you that you ought to use the MSD coil, and I don't have a number. Summit will. The stock coil will work, but a Capacitive Discharge specific unit will work significantly better, and longer. Also, very importantly use new GOOD 7 or 8 mm wires. You'll need them. If you don't believe that, start it at night with the hood open, turn the lights off and watch the fire works from the old wires. USE RESISTOR WIRES. Gap the plugs at least to .045 or .050
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
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Earl: Frank's right about the wires. Once I was trying to sort out an electrical problem, and I thought maybe the rotor had shorted to ground. I took off the cap and held the coil wire about 1/2" from the rotor button and cranked the engine. The spark jumped from the wire to the rotor and from the tip of the rotor to the distributor housing around and around, 8 sparks per revolution. Takes a good wire to contain that. I once worked for a guy that raced a big block scrub, and he cut the ground electrode off the plugs so the spark would jump directly to the piston. I don't think I would do that, but he claimed better combustion. I'm sure he read that somewhere, he's not mechanic enough to think of that. John in Selma, IN
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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I just put a new set of Taylor wires on it because of my powertrain headers. Those OK?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
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Earl: Probalby. Electricity wants to take the path of least resistance, so as long as the least resistant path is the spark plug gap, that's where it will go. I must be like electricity. I like to follow the path of least resistance also. John
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Hoosier Hurricane (10/26/2008)
Earl: I must be like electricity. I like to follow the path of least resistance also. John That'll be the day! He races a 50 year old Ford SuperStocker 'cause it's easier to build and maintain than a Scrub or 5.0 Mustang! Uh Huh, sure!
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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Ok I am now the proud owner of a MSD ignition system. I have one more question. I am using now Autolite Platinum 46 plugs . Are these ok and do I need to change the gap any?
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Earl, Just open the gap up to .045 and put them back in....You'll like it.
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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55Birdman (10/28/2008) Ok I am now the proud owner of a MSD ignition system. I have one more question. I am using now Autolite Platinum 46 plugs . Are these ok and do I need to change the gap any?Earl. Not to contradict everyone and their fascination for the larger plug gaps but you can get away with not regapping until the next time you have the spark plugs removed either for service or replacement. The larger gaps work to an advantage on fuel injected vehicles but I find very few instances on carbureted cars where it is of an added benefit and in fact puts an increased load on the ignition circuit creating some premature failures depending upon the particular pointless ignition being used. The stronger spark just allows a wider gap without the misfiring associated with the older points systems and its associated weaker spark. I know I’ll probably get some rebuttals on this but I’ve quite a bit of dyno data to back me up as well as testing in the drag cars.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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I find less oil fouling and fuel fouling with the wider gap. The larger gap requires more energy to jump and can cause poorly insulated wires to misfire, that's true. The longer gap also has a better chance of firing the mixture, at least in my mind. Not sure what to make of the fuel injection vs. carb statement, I would have thought just the opposite unless the FI atomization is not as good as a carburettor. which is very possible. I think MSD recommends a wider Gap. This all started with the smoggers back in the 70's when they found better ignition with a hotter, longer spark, mostly due to the leaner than optimum mixtures they needed to run before cats were used.
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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depending upon the particular pointless ignition being used.
If I spend all that money on an ignition it better not be pointless.
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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The MSD is installed. I put in new plugs when I installed my 113 heads . I didnt want to pull them to regap them because they are a pain to get out around the Powertrain headers. I decided not to . So after everything was inplace and checked I fired it up and all I can say is "WOW".
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Earl, See, this modern electronic stuff is amazing ain't it!  More on Ted's comments, spent some time thinking about what he said today. Some of this is guesswork on my part, based on knowing how thorough Ted is and how "picky" for lack of a better word, he is. I would guess that his plugs are usually new, his jetting is on and the motors he runs are usually sealed up and not burning oil. Based on that, he might not see much if any difference with a .045 gap versus a .035. I would expect the major improvement to be in less optimum cases where there's some oil burning and a less than perfect mixture. I did notice some improvement in the blown car, with old wires, by closing my gaps to 42 from 45. On my Pontiacs, the MPH would pick up by going wider. No blower, 9 to 1 compression and a Quadrajet Carb. My Windsor doesn't seem to care, but it idles better with the bigger gaps.
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By 55Birdman - 17 Years Ago
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Frank, I am like you .I am not picky about a lot of thngs I just want it to run good. My engine was just rebuilt so I hope it has no leaks (yet).But ,being new to MSD I needed to know what was the way to go with it. I do think a wider gap would work better ,but I ain't no electrical engineer so I dont know .So, I will keep the gap as is for now and see what happens in a couple hundred miles and pull one and see what it loks like and make a decision. Maybe by then I will have some leaks and I will know what to do . Thanks for all the help
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (10/29/2008)
depending upon the particular pointless ignition being used. If I spend all that money on an ignition it better not be pointless. Chas, What's the point? 

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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (10/29/2008)
depending upon the particular pointless ignition being used. If I spend all that money on an ignition it better not be pointless.  Charlie. This proves you do have a sense of humor. For you, I’ll change ‘pointless’ to ‘breakerless’. Frank. Thanks for the kind words but spark plug life in the roadster's Y is like my other race cars in that the plugs want to last forever. You gotta thank modern ‘breakerless’ ignitions for that. Looking back through the records for that particular engine, the plugs were changed out at the Birdsapallooza event in May of 2005 and have been doing their job since without a hiccup. But you’re right on the jetting as I’m always adjusting on that. Regarding spark plug gaps, I believe Steve Metzger pretty well covered it in a post he wrote yesterday in a separate but similar thread. http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic17921-3-2.aspx But this is a good topic as it gets the mental juices to flowing so I’ll add some more thoughts. Leaner mixtures typically like a wider gap and fuel injection systems in general puts an emphasis on ‘lean’ during cruise situations. In a lean situation, a wider gap give the spark more time to ‘find’ and ignite the mixture. On a sidenote, the BG Demon line of carburetors will typically like both a wider plug gap and increased advance for the initial ignition timing settings more so than the Holley carbs simply because of the leaner idle and cruise mixtures they exhibit. I do recognize that the requirements between idle/cruise and full throttle are also different in regards to spark plug gapping. On the flip side, higher combustion pressures increases the need for a stronger spark while maintaining a given gap. Because the ignition system is either maxed out already or not being upgraded, the spark plug gap is easily reduced to fit any increases in demands that are being placed upon the ignition system. I simply run across too many instances in a performance situation where an engine is misfiring at the top end of its power band and the first thing I do is have the customer reduce the plug gap which in a majority of the cases is the fix. I get chastized quite a bit for sending engines out of the shop with a smaller than recommended plug gap but it’s one area of troubleshooting that does not have to be revisited if an issue crops up. I recently reduced the gap in my roadster engine from 0.035” (Columbus setting) to 0.025” and was rewarded with a personal best for the Y engine that resides between the rails. These are the same plugs that I’ve been running since 2005 but simply regapped. I’ll accept that the et reduction wasn’t all plug gap related as the air was good but still feel confident that plug gapping was still a contributor. This is something I picked up from recent dyno testing where spark plug gapping was the emphasis and simply put those learnings to use on the car. Again, this is full throttle testing which will differ from cruise situations. Here’s an et slip from a couple of weeks ago with the 0.025” plug gaps. As an FYI, the slowest pass for the day was a 9.67 et. I’m car # 411E and in the right lane. 
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By mctim64 - 17 Years Ago
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Ted, it looks as if you have this subject down. Although I run a .045 gap in my "Y" with a strong coil and 9.0:1 comp. I recently installed a supercharger on my Triumph and found that under hard acceleration ( and 7lbs boost) it would "crap out", but with simpley closing the gap from .035 to .025 it took care of the problem. I do plan on installing an MSD system on this car but it's more for the "Boost retard".
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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My sense of humor is left of left field but not in the grand stands. I actually have difficulty recognizing humor and sarcasm. I understand the concept but I generally don't get it in practice. Anyway, this doesn't relate to ignition.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
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I'm still reading and learning about this - ...the inductive systems we are running get a certain amount of electrical energy into the coil primary - volts/amps/and charge time (dwell). Then the circuit is broken and the secondary "fires" - makes the inductive energy jump through the wiring to the plug and across the gap. The energy is volts times amps - and whatever it takes in volts to make the jump, reduces the amps (and vice versa). It supposedly takes about 10,000 volts to fire a pressurized engine cylinder - don't know what gap is assumed there - but if the gap is enlarged and the volts raise - the amps must fall. When we are welding - we adjust amps to get the heat right - my guess is, that when we fool with the plug gaps, we are adjusting the balance between amps and volts to suit the compression/mixture - and get the heat right.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Charlie, Humour is when I say it, sarcasm is when somebody else thinks of it first!. Ted, I am running an MSD blaster, but the blower makes my experiences in this car not directly transferable. I have not had any top end misfire issues, that I'm aware of, with the Duraspark, Flamethrower, 6AL combo. But, if I can quit breaking parts long enough to get a couple of runs in, I will try closing the gaps up to see if there's any noticeable difference.
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