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By Doug T - 17 Years Ago
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So what does the Y block world think about the current state of the Finincal melt down especially in relation to FoMoCo? Bear in mind the following facts: 1) The republican Bush administration promoted and got a $0.7 Trillion bailout to the financial companies that have screwed up the motrgage and credit markets so badly that businesses are closing up right and left all around the world. But they (the Bushies) are now baulking at a plan worth currently $15 billion or about 2% of what they are planning to give the Financial companies and they can't even begin to administer that business!! 2) Even though all American producers especially FoMoCo and GM are building high quality cars that are said to be competitive with the best Asian and European brands a large portion of the American market will not consider them in any buying decision. 3) The big 3 Co's support an older work force and a huge retirement legacy that the foreign manufacturers on shore or overseas do not support. If the big 3 go under eventually the gov will end up picking up at least some of these retirement costs. 4) The foreign manufacturers are located in southern states who lured them to locate there by giving great forgivness on real estate and employment taxes, Free training for the work force (ie paid for by the state), low wage base and fairly lax regulation of safety and immigration. So these states are subsidising the foreign makers and are largely represented by the republican senators who make the most noise about letting the big 3 fail. 5) FoMoCo recognized a couple years ago that things weren't going all that well and started downsizing and building up cash reserves to weather the storm. They also started preparing to bring smaller cars from Europe and Asia with world wide "platforms". So now they are in the best shape to move into the new markets 6) GM has been far less forceful about downsizing their operations 7) Chrysler is now owned by a completely private big financial company Cereibus(sp?) who bought it from Daimler at fire sale prices. Another name for this is speculation. So here is one possible scenario: GM gets a bailout with the CarCzar to be sure they use the funds wisely and don't use the gov $ to get a competitive advantage over FoMoCo. Cereibus gets to liquidate Chrysler and take their lumps. That means the the Gov probably gets stuck with the Chrysler employee retirement costs in the long run.
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By yehaabill - 17 Years Ago
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Y-Guy Doug: You've just opened a can of worms and being the
Great country we are, everyone has a "belly-button" so the
opinions will vary. I'm from Alabama, and we are one of the
states that put up the big incentives to draw the "others"
here. The one thing that sticks out, in MY thinking, these
Japanese companies are using our people, our materials,
making billions on profits (and have for years long before
they came south). Honda has been "here", Ohio I think, and
they've made and continue to make big profits and have
for years. Why them, and not GM/Ford/Chrysler,( management????)
I'm just saying "our" big three have been greedy
and lived a little "High on the hog" for years and its finally
catching up with them..
I think we've got to help them, to some degree,
because of all the "little guys" that would go under with them.
I just want to see them watched closely and not waste
the hard earned money WE are giving them. The Chrysler
corp went thru this (K-Car!!!) and came out O.K. but that was
a long time ago. All I can say, PRAY for our leaders, whether
you voted for them or not, and hope this can be repaired....
Just my 2 pennies worth
Bill
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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I agree with much of what Bill says. I think we, the American people, need to learn from our mistakes and this will not happen if we bail out these companies. Quite frankly, I don't see how giving such a large sum of money to those who have proven by their ignorant and stubborn behavior that they can't manage it will be of any benefit. At this point what's done is done. Let's hope we aren't digging a deeper hole with the 700 billion $ and 15 billion $ "bailouts."
On the subject of the economy in general, I am enthusiastic. It's giving me an opportunity to buy space tourism related stocks real cheap! But at my age, it is an advantage. Hopefully the more experienced folks here will come out well in the end.
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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First off, even though I have voted mostly Democratic for my voting record, I want to make sure that people don't confuse Bush and his supporters with conservatives or traditional Republicans. I admire and support Republicans like Nebraska's Chuck Hagel, Colorado's Joel Hefley and Ron Paul from Texas, men of principle. I even admire my state's (Idaho) Governor Butch Otter. Otter is somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun, and a hardcore anti-environmentalist but he's an actual conservative who voted against the Patriot Act when he was a Senator for Idaho.
Bush and company think themselves capitalists. They are, in fact, corporatists; supporters of certain businesses but not really in favor of free market capitalism.
As for GM? If they had spent their energies finishing the electric car instead of spending money lobbying the California legislature to repeal the mandate for zero emission cars, if GM had competed with Toyota instead of ceding the small car market to foreign competition and lobbying congress not to raise the CAFE standards for trucks, if GM had done a credible job of competing in the car market, I might be more sympathetic. If they had followed through on that electric car, GM would rule the car market.
If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus.
Also, GM once had a huge retirement fund for its workers. Because the stock market at one time was growing and because that fund had gotten large, they successfully lobbied to reduce their obligations to that fund. I'll have to research that more but I remember it happening. Now their workers won't have the retirement they earned.
GM, its board, and its executive office deserve jail.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 17 Years Ago
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I suppose (in a perfect world), the taxpayers should bail out Ford, and let GM & Chrysler go under. But, in reality, success usually depends upon innovation and big picture/forward thinking (a la Henry Ford, H. Honda, etc.). Since those attributes are no longer characteristic, in general, of American style business, the money would be wasted even on FoMoCo. Better to suffer the temporary economic hardship of letting the moribund U.S. auto industry collapse, and thus make room for a new generation of creative/innovative people?
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By mctim64 - 17 Years Ago
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I have an opinion on this subject but I don't know if this is the place for it. I would just say I hope the "Big Three" can make it without My tax dollars. I have paid for My cars.
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By marvsmerc - 17 Years Ago
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Well it's really sad that it has come to this. Yes there was some mis-management and not enough forward thinking, which is why Ford is a little OK. But, a big part of their problem is Americans weakness for promoting & buying foreign ! Read any Car magazines editors & staff reports and you realize how biased most of the articles are towards Japanese cars. This has part of the trend to buying Honda's & Toyota's etc. Not to say they are not any good, they are but People read and follow! American cars are good too! I've heard from so many owners that this is the best car I ever owned-yet they owned it only 6 months. I have owned a Ford Freestyle for 2 yrs now without a hitch. You read the reviews on it & the owners give it very high ratings but the magazines a lot lower. I have read these on many American cars & it is always the same. Are these editors experts?? They have been swayed & look the other way at American cars & they in turn have swayed the people who read them. It has been Un-American all the way! Be American-Buy American!! I can remember back in the 70's when we tried to export cars to Japan, they were smashing them with sludge-hammers on TV. I don't forget these things. I remember when Columbia coat co. Closed down a factory in Vermont just before Christmas & moved Overseas. My neighbors took it hard and were crying. Will I still buy those products-I don't think so. They blame the unions & costs to make it here-but charge more for their product now-with cheaper labor overseas, so who wins? Unions tried to prevent the jobs from leaving but people blamed them instead of the companies! Go shopping with your wife and look at all the tags at where stuff is made. It makes me sick. I want to buy American & support my own people !!! America-Wake up- its almost too late!! This is one big can of Worms!
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By Johnson Rod - 17 Years Ago
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Regardless of what happens with the Big Three regarding to bailing them out or letting them file for bankruptcy, I worry more about the workers and their families and the smaller subcontractor's workers going down with them. This thing is bigger than just bailing Ford, Chrysler and GM.
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By Tom Compton - 17 Years Ago
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I agree with PC that both Bushes are liberals. I just don't think voting more toward the socialist methods is the answer. The mortgage debacle was started in the 70s with a law (cannot recall the name now) to increase home ownership with good intentions - statistics showed home owners are more productive, make more money and are happier citizens so increase home ownership and make people happier, right. Unfortunately the statistics were misinterpreted - home ownership is a result not a cause. Same misapplication of statistics is seen in judges ordering juvenile delinquets to stay in school. And the delinquents have more time to influence other students. Result the schools dumbed down the public education system to the point that some "graduates" cannot read or write. High school graduation is a result not a cause. Clinton and W both added to the push for "sub prime" loans to make more people happy. The failure of the morgage industry put a strain on all the other facets of American economy and that slowing economy is pushing the poorly balanced Big 3 over the cliff. Yes, Ford is slightly better off. This is the second time Chrysler has been in need of rescue. Big 3 management thought they could survive anything and agreed to non competitive wages and benefits. I heard that laid off GM workers by contract still get their full pay and that retirement is 100% of the amount they were getting. Ridiculous if true. GM and rest of Big 3 will not immediately close their doors if no $ is handed over to the extortionists. They will file Chapter 11 and begin the much needed reorganization and if done right come out of bankrupcy a better company. If not done right, one of the foreign companies may buy some equipment and marques. The feds should not have begun by bailing out New York City and Chrysler. California already has their hand out. Stop the madness now. Merry Christmas, Y'all. Tom Compton
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By Missouri Mike - 17 Years Ago
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I would point out that the housing crisis with sub prime loans (read that as people who should never have qualified for a loan) goes bock to the Clinton administration when there was a hue and cry across the land that all should get to be a homeowner. This was championed by ACORN and numerous other organizations. The North American Free Trade Act (NAFTA) turned to be less than a stellar deal for the US economy and that was initiated by Geo Bush Sr and left on the desk of the oval office for Clinton to sign into law. If you look back, rocks need to be thrown at members of both parties as well as numerous corporate leaders: Enron, AIG etc. I find myself voting AGAINST someone rather than for someone. We have the best system of government in the world, but it works best when we elect honorable men/women of integrity who resist the temptation to abuse their position. Should the American taxpayer bail out the auto makers???????????? I know we all hate the thought of it. However, I'm afraid it may be the lesser of the two (or more) evils. It's claimed for every auto worker that loses a job, nine others in auto related or dependent industries lose theirs and they become a financial burden rather then a contributor. Scary. If one of the not so big three folds, supposedly, the others will too becaus so many suppliers would also go under. Ripple effect I guess. A Toyota rep even testified before congress that Toyota would also be affected. Go figure. Buy American it's the ultimate patriotic act. WOW, did I say all that??????????????? Missouri Mike... now stepping down from his podium
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By DANIEL TINDER - 17 Years Ago
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If we could dig up and re-animate Henry Ford (before he got overly obtuse/senile), and make FoMoCo a family owned, private company again, HE might have jumped at the opportunity to repay GM for their long history of double-dealing (and show up the competition's hubris) by eschewing the private jet and DRIVING to D.C. in a Ford product!
That style of flamboyant leadership might make people think twice about buying foreign cars, especially since Toyota, Honda, etc. are beginning to fall prey to the same corporate complacency that protracted success always seems to bring.
But, as long as the "old boy" U.S. executive club, with their golden parachutes/sweetheart bonuses (that reward failure) are running things, customers will remain cynical, and brand loyalty will likely become an obsolete concept.
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By MoonShadow - 17 Years Ago
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Henry would do it in a Model A! Of course Henry would have us still driving Model A's (or would it be ZZZZ's by now? The big three have been operating in a monopolized vacume for too long. They got too darn greedy. I've seen very little effort to go to battle with the imports (other than trying to buy them up). They have lobbied our government to put high tariffs on import cars to help protect their market! I know the workers and Union's would disagree but $55 per hour with overtime and benefits is pretty darn good money. If the Union really believes in the worker they should take steps to insure their employment even if that means a pay cut (including the white collars). Does anyone know the general salaries of the top level employees at these companies? I'll bet there are Millions flying around up there! My 2bits, Chuck in NH
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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Guys, I feel like I need to apologize for my remarks regarding President Bush. Overly harsh. I'll try to do better in the future.
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By Doug T - 17 Years Ago
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Calling Mr. Bush a corporatist is not the worst thing he has been called and it has the advantage of being pretty close to the mark. With regards to the big executive saleries, it seems to me to be a function of how corporations are governed. The Board of directors should set executive pay at a reasonable levels. However BofD's are dominated by huge fund managers who cast enormous votes by virtue of the millions of shares they control but don't own themselves. Further these fund managers do not care about anything the company does, they are only interested this Quarter's bottom line. Thus management's incentive is just to get this quarter's bottom line and therefore share value as high as possible which is generally what they are rewarded for doing. So in addition to the advantages of tax give backs and free training in the deep south, Foreign companies operating in the USA are not asking their management to boost this quarter's bottom line all the time, they can afford to take a longer view. GM Ford and C are forced to go for the fast buck by modern American business practices such as come out of the Harvard school of business. US managers aren't a lot dumber than foreign ones but they are working to different rules. But I do get cranked up by the senators from BM-Toy-sen such as Shelby of Al, McConnell of Ky and Corker of Tn who are so free market doctrinaire about the auto industry and pretend they don't recognize these differences. Then they say GM F & C can't compete because their state supported foreign companies are soo much smarter. As for the legacy health care costs the local paper here in L'ville published these figures Today. US companies Foreign in USA Base hourly wage $29 $26 Cost of vac OT etc 14 9 Health & Taxes 12 11 Retiree Health & pension costs 16 3 Totals $71 $49 However, adding the legacy Retiree costs to the man hour rate is a bit of a sham make the domestic company employee rate look higher than it is. The actual rate is $58 still higher than $49 but not so bad.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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The part that's missing here is the unbeleivable overhead that the "Big" (not any more) three have to carry in health, retirement and wages. That's going to be difficult to overcome. In another 25 years the Japanese and Germans will have the same problems, but by then our Auto industry will be a footnote in some third grade history book. Doug and I have gone around on the health care thing for a number of years, we don't agree on the solution, we do agree there's a real problem.  I should also point out, that, after 35 odd years of supplying castings to the Auto Mfgs, there is definitely too many peple working for them. Union AND management. Much of it is created by our own Govrnment's rules and regs. EPA, Cafe stds, NHTSA, Tax regulations. OSHA. Blah, blah. The absolute LAST thing we need are another round of ridiculous regulations to insure the re-election of a bunch of egotistical, long winded lawyers to Congress. Another thing we don't need is a "Car Czar" or 50 mpg CAFE stds.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
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A friend of mine, retired Ford engineer, told me there are more retirees from Ford than there are workers. That sounds like a deadly formula to me. John
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By marvsmerc - 17 Years Ago
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I would think there were more retirees than workers after all these years, but if the money for retirement fund was put in & left there, there should be more than enough there with the interest made to cover those workers. That is the way it supposed to work & yes I believe workers should be entilted to this after working most of their lifes for these companies. I have seen these Senators that Doug is talking about on TV & frankly make me sick with their attitudes, & a lot of people will buy it. I don't ! I think it is Un- American. These japanese companies have set up shop with all their tax incentives, etc & with non-union workers who's pay scale, health care, & no retirement, etc., which underscores the principles of which America was built on. Like Wal-mart, these companies are destroying America, & forcing the other guys out of business, with their practices........... We have played into their hands & must change our attitudes & support our American companies and workers, & keep their right to Negotiated wages, health care, and a decent retirement. We must not look the other way! That is why it has come to this and will get worse !
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By Glen Henderson - 17 Years Ago
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O K guys, I was going too stay out of this but ya'll yanked my chain. How much of the big three's product is made in the USA anymore? The 94 F150 that I had before I got my 99 F350 was made in Canada, said so right there on the door. Seems like every part that I buy from the dealership is made in Mexico or some other third world country. The south used to have textile mills and sewing factorys in every small town, this was our bread and butter. All these jobs are gone now due to NAFTA, just look at the labels on your clothes. I don't like rice rockets and everything I drive has a Ford or John Deere name plate on it, but at least now American workers are building some of the "rice rockets" and putting food on the table. Its a sad state of affairs, but Sen Shelby and others are doing just what "we" elected them to do, bring jobs back to the south.
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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That's why I like to say "It doesn't matter what brand you buy. It's all made in China." I hope these retirees of The Big Three are not relying solely on The Big Three for retirement. It is not a good idea to rely on another person or entity for ones own retirement future.
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By PWH42 - 17 Years Ago
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It is outrageous that anyone (Democrat or Republican) in the government should use any of my tax dollars to bail out any corporation,company or individual that has not operated their business or personal life in a responsible manner.That includes the already bailed out financial institutions and the automakers and all the foolish,greedy,self-centered narcissistists who bought houses and vehicles and toys that cost far more than they could afford.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
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Yes, the retirement plans are supposed to be self sustaining, but the health care insurance is still shouldered by the manufacturers. So who eventually pays it? We, the consumers. And it looks like the consumers are less likely to buy right now. By the way, a friend of mine, retired GM, said that GM has "borrowed" some $5 million from the retirement fund. I have no proof of this, anyone know? John
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By marvsmerc - 17 Years Ago
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I am sorry if I was the one who jerked your chain Glenn, but this stuff not only pertains to the Auto indusrty but all of Industry. Yes many of our vehicles were made in Canada, our good neighbors, now & even way back in the 50's, but they were still American cars, with our parts & designs,etc, & Canada did not try to build their own & be in direct competition with us. What I saw in these Senators, including yours is their opposition to this bail-out-is their putting all the fault on the big 3 & their unions. But it should not be at the expense of others. Some of the fault goes to them too for subsidizing & helping these foreign companies to set up non-union shops in their states. These companies have re-lentlessly worked at getting it all. They couldn't even leave the American truck alone. I also get so sick of hearing people bicker about others making so much money for what they do- that is part of the problem. We need strength & support from our brothers & sisters, not this kind of stuff. Lets not make this a north & south thing either-we are all in this together. We also have had textile milll, leather factories, and iron ore mines shut down & now are ghost towns here, as they all went oversea's. The unions tried to stop it but industry & goverment was too powerful & they have broke us down. They have pitted one against the other. Yes I have worked Union & have seen the company "bring in "scab" labor doing our work for just a $1.00 less any hour & throw it our faces. And at contract time, they say take it or leave it, becuase we have them if you don't like it! Yes, Glenn, My chain has been jerked for some time now! Time for us to change these ways and sticking up for each other as Americans, as these Senators and Everyone should be doing!!
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By Glen Henderson - 17 Years Ago
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Marv, my point is that dispite what you see on the news about Govs selling senate seats ect, there are still elected officals that try to do what they were elected to do. I think that the 700 billion given to the banks was a slap in my face and all other tax payers and while 25 billion or 32 billion (which is it) is a relatively small amount, I don't think that myself, my kids or my grandkids should have to work to pay for the excesses of the auto makers or the unions without some assurance that it's going to fix the problem first of all and second that it want happen again. As far as the foreign auto's, as long as people buy them, they will keep making them, same thing with underware. Comes down to if you are willing to pay 10 bucks for a pair of drawers made in a USA union shop or are you going to Wal Mart and get three pair made in southeast Asia for 6 bucks. Bottom line, we Americans vote every two or four years at the polls, but we vote every day with our wallet. Another thought, I doubt that many politicans will be reading this forum so maybe we should get back to what we know best, Y Blocks. By the way I have contacted both Sen Shelby and Sen Sessions and voiced my opinion on this whole bailout thing. I suggest that all concerned Americans do the same.
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By mctim64 - 17 Years Ago
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Glen Henderson (12/14/2008)
Another thought, I doubt that many politicans will be reading this forum so maybe we should get back to what we know best, Y Blocks. By the way I have contacted both Sen Shelby and Sen Sessions and voiced my opinion on this whole bailout thing. I suggest that all concerned Americans do the same.My thoughts exactly.
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By ejstith - 17 Years Ago
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It's strange that in the original post, bashing basically every Republican in the system, he failed to even mention the outlaw actions of the likes of Barney Frank and Cris Dodd, which both should be in jail in my opinion, but the people of their states will vote them in again and again. He failed to mention the give-a-way tactics of the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Ried, Chuck Shumer, Henry Waxman and on an on. They have been in control of the congress (the money) for the last two years and what good has come of that? I'm not saying that Bush et al has done everything right but believe me, there's enough blame to go around to all of the scallywags. And you think things are going to get better with this gang coming in? We'll see said the blind man to his deaf dog!
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By PWH42 - 17 Years Ago
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ejstith, Well said!!!!!
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By sundance241 - 17 Years Ago
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EJSTITH....................Amen !!!
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By speedpro56 - 17 Years Ago
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Eistith, I believe you are RIGHT ON!!!!
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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There's enough blame to go around here. Congress is a joke. BUT the companies AND the unions (sorry Ray!!) have their share of responsibility in this. But the blame game will not solve the problem. The big three, or 2 1/2, will have to become competetive pricewise with the rest of the world. All the legislation in the world is not going to force people to purchase overpriced merchandise. The Americans have managed to become competetive in the quality and performance areas, but they will still need to bring down their costs. Don't think so? check Wal-Mart and see where things are made, or try to buy an American made boot or shoe! 40 years ago I worked for a while in a sole leather tannery in Pennsylvania. It's gone, along with a couple hundred other American leather companies. Several Thousand jobs in Mass. and along the east coast and down south went with it. They wouldn't change, so they were forced out. Look at Youngstown Ohio, or Gary Indiana for what happens when steel wouldn't change. There is no more American light airplane industries. The government/ Green environmentalists are trying to kill the coal industry. We can't drill for oil in the US, or build nuclear plants. Almost All of this is directly attributeable to EPA/OSHA and other Gov't agencies, and poor management, and Union based costs. Obviously we need more legislation, higher wages, and more help "protecting" the environment. I'm getting down from my soapbox and going to take my nap now.
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