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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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OK, I need some help here. I'm trying to cover my bases here before I tear things apart. Does anyone have a '55-56 Ford transmission laying around that you can measure the diameter of the input shaft where it goes in the pilot bushing. How about the diameter of the input shaft where the splines are. The length of the input shaft from the end to the transmission case. I can find out all of this stuff when I get mine out but I'd rather have it done before I start so I can get the parts before I tear things down to shorten the down time. Another thing. I plan to bypass the governor so do I still have to have an overdrive relay? I under stand the solenoid used a different voltage to hold it in overdrive than it does to get it in and out of overdrive. Any help along these lines would be appreciated.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
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Relay allows the use of cheaper control switches/wiring. OD solenoid draws a lot of current. Even the lighter holding coil might pull enough juice to eventually fry a toggle switch (?).
P.S. An interesting point: Since the solenoid mounts at an angle, it is possible that when installed with the drain hole up, a leaky seal might allow trans. oil to reach a level that could cause malfunction of the internal electrical contacts. Even if drain hole is pointed down, if it ever gets plugged-up, when the seal starts leaking (inevitable) and the solenoid fills up, OD will usually quit functioning.
I should also point out, that while I did experiment with various custom re-wiring configurations (it can be fun to run through all six gears, especially if you have a higher rear-end ratio and an abundance of HP), and continual free-wheeling CAN save OD wear & tear/annoyance if most driving is in heavy city traffic, I eventually returned to the fully automatic factory configuration. I works fine, and is less trouble in the end.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I have a NOS input shaft for a 56 with a T86 OD in my hand. If you take the front bearing cover off, it will be easier to measure. From the snap ring that holds the bearing it is 5 5/8"
to the tip. The pilot bearing is .675 and the 10 spline shaft is 1". 45 years ago, I always had a toggle switch next to the lockout handle. In those days it was quicker to flip a switch than wait for a kickdown switch and there were times when second/over was just the right gear.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks guys, those dimensions are what I needed. As far as the switch ect, my car never had an overdrive so there is no kickdown switch etc. I ran a T-85 (came with the car) in a '57 and I had a switch to go to OD. It did however have the relay I guess. What does the seal look like under the solenoid? In both transmissions I have there is just a hole that the solenoid shaft goes into. I made a gasket for the solenoid to case thing. Thanks again for the dimensions. Will save me some hassle after I get it tore down.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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EJ: I have run a toggle switch directly to the overdrive solenoid in one vehicle about 20 years and the other about 40 years. No switch problem with either one.
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By Jeff - 16 Years Ago
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You can eliminate the governor and the OD relay. I also assume that you won't be using the kick down switch. You only need an on/off switch.
The solenoid uses two sets of coils. When you would energize the solenoid via your switch the first coil is the higher amperage coil which handles the engagement process. Once engaged there a set of internal contacts which disengages the primary coil and activates a secondary coil which draws much less current. It's function is to hold the solenoid in the engaged position.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks guys. This is exactly the info I needed. I really appreciate the responses on here. When one needs help you have no idea how good it is to get it from those who know. Thanks again ..
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By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
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I don't think there ever was a gasket between the solenoid body flange and trans. case, as it came from the factory (?). The shaft seal that goes in the trans. opening (stepped/shouldered o-ring), and the shaft seal in the solenoid body look very similar. Don't know if they are the same part #(7693), but it IS still readily available from T-Bird catalogs. A flange gasket might be rather redundant if the trans. seal is missing, since if the seal in the solenoid is bad, oil will just run out of the solenoid drain hole. The shaft seal in the trans. is easy to replace. You have to turn the solenoid 90 degrees to release it from the pawl. Just have a 1/4" dowel ready to plug the hole (to avoid fluid loss). Also, watch out for NOS units where the shaft is assembled 180 degrees incorrectly (unit won't fit on trans.).
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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OK, I may have to look into this. I don't remember seeing a hold in the solenoid. I also don't remember seeing a seal in the hole where the solenoid shaft goes into the transmission. I'll check all of this out. Oh yeah, I know how to get the solenoid out. I only did it about a thousand times during my ordeal. I'll check into all of this stuff.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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There is an o-ring that goes into the adapter housing. The od is the size of the hole, and the id is the size of the solenoid shaft. They come on Borg Warner gasket kits. I bought some after market gasket sets on eBay recently. I haven't looked to see if the o-ring is in there.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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crenwelge (3/2/2009)
There is an o-ring that goes into the adapter housing. The od is the size of the hole, and the id is the size of the solenoid shaft. They come on Borg Warner gasket kits. I bought some after market gasket sets on eBay recently. I haven't looked to see if the o-ring is in there.
Thanks, I'll check tomorrow ..
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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OK, checked that solenoid today. In that hole seems to me like there is a steel bushing in there with maybe an o-ring inside that bushing. I couldn't see down in there but if felt like rubber. What ever it is I may need a new one because it's not real snug. On my solenoid there is no hole like some says should be on the bottom. The only hole in mine was where the wires came out. I assume the hole is on the bottom of the solenoid? Also it looks like my input shaft is longer than the tranny I have now. Mine is about 6 1/4 long and the measurement I got from on here was 5 5/8th. What can I do about that?
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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The o ring is a Ford p/n 26H 7693. I looked in the gasket kits I bought recently, and it is not included. By the way, is it a T86 or what that you are working on. If it is a T86, I have a bunch of input shafts, but they made them with about a half a dozen different tooth counts. Some of mine measure 5 3/4 which you have that much wiggle room. Transmissions that were behind a big block have an input shaft roughly 1/2'" longer than the y-block. Is yours a T89 which was used behind a big block?
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I just got through rummaging through my pile of transmissions and measured a T86 and a T89 out of a 64 model with a 390. I had nothing to measure with accurately, but it looks like the difference from the transmission housing to the tip is close to 6" on both transmissions. I bought the transmission years ago with intentions of putting an indestructible transmission behind a y block and I remember at the time, I thought it was close enough to work.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Yeah, the transmission I have is a T-89. It apparently was in like a '68-'69 pickup. It has a 10 tooth spline. The other one I have is a T-89 made in '62. It's input is like 6 1/4 but is a 21 tooth spline and in not too good a shape. As I said before I had a '57 Ford with a T-85 from the factory and I put a T-10 in it and didn't change anything. This is my latest problem of which there have been many. Apparently a truck had a deeper bell housing than my car has. My thinking now is maybe put a plate of some kind between the transmission and bell housing. It's coming up 1/2" too long. T-bird sells input shafts but they are mucho dinero ...T-bird also has the solenoid o-rings.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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The problem with a plate is you will loose your alignment with the input shaft retainer. Your 4 transmission bolts do not provide close enough mounting alignment. I will try to get a closer measurement on the difference between a known pullout from a 56 and my T89. The course and fine spline difference can be overcome by a different clutch disc. But care must be taken that the hub has the right offset. Have you checked the mounting bolt pattern? The T89 I have has 2 bolt holes on each side. One for what we used to call the big housing and the other the small.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Well yeah, it has two bolts per side. Looks like a standard Ford bolt pattern. I think the diameter where it goes in the pilot bearing is the same. As far as the 21 tooth spline, the splines them selves aren't in too good a shape. Would probably work but would rather use the 10 spline one. I expect there is a little wiggle room on the length but I doubt there's a half inch. The ideal situation would be for the input shaft from a T-86 would fit on a T-89, but I don't see that happening. On the output side, that is all different but one can get u-joints with different bearings. I had that done when I put a car transmission in a '67 pickup years ago. I also may have to cut about 1 1/2" out of my drive shaft too. I think my transmission is about 26" long and the T-89 is 27 1/2 inches long. I'd have probably been better off to have gotten an overdrive out of a '55-'56 Ford but I wanted the strength of a T-85/89. Then there will be the shift lever issue. I'll eventually get it all together, with you guys help, and you do help tremendously. The problem is that I have to take the car to Tampa for my son to help me do all of this and I wanted to have most things worked out before I went. If I had it here in a shop I could just take my tranny out and do things as I got to them but I don't. Thanks a ton for all of your help.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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A T89 uses a bigger input bearing and bigger synchros and bigger sliding gears than a T86. I think I will make my T89 work. However it is on the floor and I have a 272 hanging so I can easily try it until I make it work. The T86 is tougher than most people think. I tore up a lot of input shafts and cluster gears before I was married, but they must have made better gears after I was married. My wife and I wore out the Hurst Mystery shifter before we knocked out another transmission.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Trouble with those transmissions are that they are heavy as hell. There's no way I could ever get it in by myself. I don't know if I could balance it on a floor jack or not, I'm sure I'd do something that would nearly kill me. I can just barely pick the damned thing up and get it on a bench. Back in the day I'd have no problem. I jerked transmissions around like they were nothing back then, but that was then and this is now. Oh well, I'll get it somehow .. If I can get all I can before I take it down there I'll be a lot better off. It will be sometime while the drive shaft shop does their thing. I need one yolk cut and welded and I'm sure I'll have to cut the drive shaft but there's a good shop down there. My biggest thing right now is the length of that input shaft. Does anyone know if a truck bellhousing is deeper than a car one? I guess with this late model T-89 though it could have come out of a truck with a 390 or something ..
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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I'd rather use a car input shaft, however that truck bell housing is a thought if it comes to that. Another thing on another post I saw them talking about different bolt patterns. I thought all Fords were about the same as far as bolt patterns go. Another thing, what about where the throw out bearing slides? Is that the same on a T-86 as it is on a T-85/89? This whole thing is gettin' deeper & deeper.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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The T89 I have has 2 bolt pattens. One which is the y block and a larger pattern which is I am not sure what it fits. I have a half a dozen t86 laying around. I also have a 272 that still has a clutch housing and a clutch on it. It is on the floor, so I can do some measuring on it.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Well this could present a whole new set of problems. Both of my T-89's have the same bolt pattern and only has one bolt pattern. How about measuring the distance between the top bolt holes and the up & down bolt holes and tell me what it is on your T-86's ..Thanks ..
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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Across the top the holes are 5 1/4 center to center, bottom holes are 6 1/4 center to center. Top to bottom 7 1/4. These measurements are eye balling a tape measure on a clutch housing which is still on a 272. I have drilled holes before. When I do that, I screw bolts into the bolt holes and turn a center tip on the bolts and them measure tip to tip. However the above measurements should be close enough to determine if your box will fit.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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It should be close enough to see if its goin' to fit. Thanks .. we'll see if this is gonna be a problem ..
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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OK, I measured mine today and that's what I've got too. Whew! I thought you had said 4 1/2 across the top and I was about to go into a panic. Actually my tranny has 4 sets of holes. The other T-89 I have only has one set, the narrow set of holes. So, now, if I can get this input shaft issue sorted out I'll be in business. From then on it's just stuff. I'll have to get that rear yoke cut and welded and probably an inch and a half out of the driveshaft and I'm good to go. Only thing then will be the shift levers. Are the shift levers on a T-86 the same as on the T-89? I have a set but they are off set so will take some work to straighten one of those out and probably re-drill the hole. If the ones off the T-86 will work that will make things easier I think .. Thanks for the help.,
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I use Hurst Mystery shifters. Mounting kits for T86 pop up on eBay ever so often. I have never seen a T89 kit on eBay, but they may appear. They can be fabricated by making a cutout for the OD solenoid. I bend the levers straight and then play with them until I get the correct throw. I think one or the other levers I turned upside down to make it work. The output shaft is the same as the fine spline Ford went to in 57 and used many years. A 57 speedo cable will make the speedo work but it may not be accurate depending on the rear end ratio the donor car had.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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I will still use the colum shifter. That's one reason I wanted an overdrive in the first place. Otherwise I'd have just stuck a T-5 in it. I may be able to find a yoke that will fit. It has 31 splines on it. The biggest thing now is that damned input shaft. If I could just find a 6" one somewhere. Even a T-10 should work. There's a transmission place here in town that advertises on the net that they have everything. I'll call them and see. Oh well, by the time I get this all done I'll be an expert on this stuff. When are you goin' to put yours in?
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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A column shift may be easier to work with than a floor shifter because you don't have the solenoid to deal with. If you get someone to hold the column shift where it should be for first, then figure out where the shift lever should be. It is easier to lengthen or shorten the rod than the lever. Then try reverse and see if the throw is about right. That can be adjusted by redrilling the hole for the rod. If it is clocked wrong, I cut the end of at the transmission making a circular cut. I then turn it to where it needs to be, V it out and weld it. I have 3 56 Fords and the parts to build a 4th. I have a NOS 292 service block that sat outside and needs to be bored. I have a set of .030 over forged pistons and a steel crank out of a 62 model truck I want to use. I haven't decided which car I want to put the engine and transmission in. I have a bad habit of jumping from one project to another, but I always manage to have a few things I can drive. I also have 7 50's GMC's.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Are the shift levers on the T-86's like the ones on the T-89's? That one that's offset, I can heat it and bend it straight if I have to. Or if my T-86's will work I'll just put them on there. Man, you've got a lot of stuff. I've only got one and it keeps me busy and, for the most part it's complete and ready to go. I just put a new radiator in it and that was my biggest hold up for drivin' any distance. With this T-86 though, it just seems like at 65 mph the motor is about to jump out of the hole. It's tachin' around 3 grand at 65. With the OD it should be about 2100 ..
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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It's pouring down rain and my transmissions are in a shed 100 yards from the house. I will be in Houston for 2 days and then I will go look. I am assuming you have the 3.78 rear the car came with. You can expect a lot of noise with solid lifters and a steel fan and not much insulation. You aren't hurting the Y Block at 65. One of my 1956 is one that I bought in Long Island from the original owner and drove it to Texas. It was a 3 speed std. There were times my wife and I were cruising at 80 and it seemed quiet because it had single exhaust instead of 2 glass packs. 3.89 which is behind 6 cylinders and T86 makes a fun car to drive. I have a 4.09 out of a station wagon that I plan to put behind the T89.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Yeah, it has the 3:78's. I don't know, it just seems like a lot of revs. On my '57 I had back in the day it had factory OD so it was a 4:10 and I didn't have a problem with all those rev's back then. When I took the T-85 out of it and put a T-10 in it 4th was 1:1 so I guess it was really hummin' at 70 or so. I think this T-85 with the 3:78's will be about right. I've got a little Pontiac Sunfire and it cruises at 3,500 and is smooth. I had a Mazda Miata and it really was hummin' but was smooth as glass. Just seemed like the higher it wound the better it liked it. They old Y-block just doesn't seem to really like it. I called a transmission shop here in Tallahassee yesterday about that input shaft and he never did call me back. It's a big online place that just happened to be here. (http://www.manual-transmission.com/. I see there's a big one in Houston too. Somebody should have that input shaft.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I looked at a 56 station wagon parts car that still has a T86 in it. It looks like the shift linkage is quite similar to the T89. Just make sure you have enough throw to put it completely in gear. You may have to shorten or lengthen the levers a little. The best way is to put the transmission all the way in 1st gear and then make sure that's where the linkage is comfortable when the column shift is in low. Then try the other gears. I think that part is very doable.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Good, I need some "doable" .. I'm still dealin' with that input shaft thing. Right now that's my biggest hurdle. You said it was 5 5/8th. I'd think maybe a 6" one would work. I would think there's some wiggle room there. I doubt there's 3/4" wiggle room though. I think my manual says they have a 10" clutch disk .. I'll probably replace all of that too. I am assuming the throwout bearing is the same. ??
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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The 5 5/8" is from the snap ring grove to the tip. However, the T89 has a little different setup in the input shaft bearing. Both the T86 and T89 are around 6" from the front of the transmission where it bolts to the fly wheel housing to the tip of the shafts. I measured 3 different T86 transmissions and there is 1/8" variation between the 3. Also , I stuck a shaft about the diameter of the pilot bearing in a junk engine that I know had a T86 behind it. By laying a straight edge across the clutch housing, the shaft goes in about 6 1/4" before it hits the crank. Use your 56 throwout bearing. Later models used a different fork. Unless you plan on laying rubber at every red light, the stock clutch will be fine.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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That input shaft from the transmission I have with the 21 teeth is about a half inch shorter than the 10 spline one. I wonder if one could take the input shaft to a machine shop and get it cut down to 5 3/4 or 6 inches. Ever heard of such a thing? It looks like, from the measurements you sent that the pilot bearing is the same inside diameter as the T-89. (.670). No I don't plan on a bunch of rubber burning. Used to do that and tore a lot of stuff up "back in the day". It's told how strong a 9" rear end is, on that '57 Ford,I had, I launched one time and twisted the whole pinion shaft out of the rear end. Sheared all of the bolts holding it in. Pinion was laying on the ground hooked to the driveshaft. I've got a Schieffer 11" clutch for a 383 Merc and an 11" aluminum flywheel. It's all brand new but 40 years old ..Too bad it won't fit.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Have you ever checked to see if an input shaft from a T-86 would fit into a T-89/85? Bearing size etc ..
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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The T89 has a lot larger bearing and the teeth would nut mesh with the cluster gear. A T89 was built with a 10 spline. The one I have was out of a 64 or so model with a 390 in front of it. If the spline is the only difference, you can get a clutch disk to fit as long as the diameter and the hub offset is the same.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks Mike, that's some good stuff there. I had the spicer (bolt on) output U-joint on one of mine but I took the tail shaft off of the other one and put it on. It has a slip joint output shaft. My only problem right now is the input shaft. It is about 3/4 inch too long. My other one is 1/2 inch too long, like the article said. Thanks again ..
EJ
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