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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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alright so i have my rings in and it runs pretty well but it smokes from the road draft tube, dipstick and the filler. actually pretty good. i made sure to off set the ring gaps. so i'm hoping the rings need to settle and the blow by will go away. anyone got tips tricks or ideas?
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Were the cylinders honed? Were they checked for out of round or taper? Are you sure you installed them in the correct order and direction?
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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yes i honed the cylinders, i checked the taper, i installed them correctly. I triple checked.
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By mctim64 - 16 Years Ago
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Were they chrome or cast rings? I always recomnend cast for a simple re-ring job, it takes more than a ball hone to seat chrome ones. If they are cast just run it a while, they should seat if it all was done right.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Assuming you’ve got the correct crosshatch for the rings you’re using and the crankcase is not filled with synthetic oil, heat on the rings does the trick. If you’re running a 160° thermostat, this can inhibit getting enough temperature into the rings to adequately seat them early. My own preference for street engines is to use 190°/195° thermostats beginning with the first fire up. Beyond all this, just try a half dozen part throttle accelerations in high gear from 30 to 70 mph and see if that doesn’t improve the blowby significantly.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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they're cast rings.
i took it for a decent highway drive today and the blow by is much better. still a little but its better, maybe as i continue to drive it it may clear up completely.
however i was noticing that as i took my foot off the pedal at those speeds there was a huge cloud of blue smoke i can't tell if this is coming from the exhaust or the crankcase. but it has me worried.
also the problem i was having before i ringed it is still there. under a moderate load (climbing a decent hill) i get some consistent backfiring, i found the #2 cylinder held only 30 psi with a compression test. bleed down test confirmed it was leaking into the bottom end, long story short after inspecting and checking the cylinder for taper i put rings in it. i haven't yet been able to do a compression test but if the compression holds what else could it be? I've put a new carb, new plugs, cap, rotor, points, coil, ballast resistor, rings, i"ve had the heads looked at. I've played with my timing god knows how many times... I'm at a loss and about ready to dump this motor.
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By mctim64 - 16 Years Ago
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Did you take a good look at your cam when you had the bottom open? A bad lobe can do what you describe.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Worn timing chain?
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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About the back firing, could the timing be out because the 50 year old damper has slipped, as has been reported?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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Hold on a minute. You said above #2 had low compression and you honed the cylinder and put new rings in it. Did you put new rings in #2 only, or in all 8 cylinders?
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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What carburetor and distributor combination are you running? And have you rechecked the valve lash and especially on the #2 cylinder. An intake valve that is marginally on the tight side will give the ‘popping’ symptoms you mention but so will a flat exhaust lobe on the camshaft. Another compression test will rule out a lot of possibilities. But be sure to take note of all the other recommendations being mentioned as they are all pertinent.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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i did all 8. i figured i was there might as well do them all so i'm not back there next year with another dead cylinder.
i didn't look at the cam. how can i check it now that its back together?
i guess it is possible the damper slipped, it always seemed to like to run at 15 degrees of advance, it runs ok at 10 but too much less and its not so happy. I've also heard that in high altitude older engines like more advance (I'm in Denver 5280 feet above sea level). my running thought before i found the dead cylinder is that the vacuum advance on the dizzy is bad, and not giving it advance under load like its supposed to. but once i found the dead cylinder that was my priority.
i guess i have to do another compression test see of that checks out. if it does go back to looking at the dizzy.
i should try adjusting the valves, they didn't seem too bad when i started this project so i left them alone.
any thoughts on the blue smoke on decel?
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By mctim64 - 16 Years Ago
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[quote]XNoctemNacimur (3/24/2009)
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i didn't look at the cam. how can i check it now that its back together?
quote]A simple way to do this is put a ruler next to each valve spring and "bump" the engine over with a remote starter switch and watch each spring for travel, they should be about the same. If one lobe is flat you will see it.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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oh and the carb is a new holley 350 cfm 2 barrel. the distributor is the stock 59. not the load-o
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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You can't check the bearing clearance of the cam with it together. Checking for a flat or worn lobe is pretty easy. Pull the valve covers, turn the motor over while watching the valves. If you see one opening less than the other, then it may be the problem. An adjusting screw turned in a significant amount farther than the rest can also be a sign.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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Lol. I got that. I just don't want to drop the oil pan again. The valve covers are no big deal
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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alright so after letting the frustration subside and the following snow i got a nice day sunday to mess with the car a bit more.
my acceleration problem was a rookie mistake, when setting the timing is pinched off the vac advance hose, and set it at 10* it ran OK but not as good as it did at 15+ but every one told me 10 degrees was max... so i went against my gut and set it there.
Sunday i went to pump some vac into advance pot with the intention of testing to see if it did in fact adjust the timing with vac applied. i fired it up hooked up my light and went to hook up the vacuum pump when i disconnected the line from the carb the motor fell on its face, i started it back up looked at my light and found i had the timing set at 5 degrees RETARD. oops, i guess i didn't think about the residual vacuum after i pinched off the hose. i bumped up my timing and now the car runs like a champ.
the compression test showed that that dead hole, came up and now all cylinders are between 70 and 85 psi. the numbers are a little low but i expect they will continue to come up. as the rings seat.
It is still smoking pretty good, however it seems to be getting better as i drive it, I've put less than 100 miles on it since I've done the ring job with normal driving conditions some highway some stop and go. so i guess its just a matter of breaking them in further. hopefully it will continue to clear up.
after reading some of the threads on oil viscosity on this forum i decided to dump the 10w-40 i put in there and try some of the shell rimula 15w-40 we use at the shop. I'm even toying with the idea of putting in 20w-50 when I'm ready to change the filter in a couple hundred more miles. (i put on a new one with the ring job.) my hope is that the thicker oil will not only save some wear on the motor but clear up the smoke further.
thanks for the help guys, I was more than a bit frustrated with the thing a couple weeks ago.
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By simplyconnected - 16 Years Ago
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Let me reiterate something Ted mentioned.
Breaking-in your piston rings is done by LOADING them. Find an open road. Starting from ~40mph, nail it all the way to ~70mph. Ten of these cycles should do it for standard cast iron rings, in a properly prepared bore. By the way, your piston rings turn in their grooves (by design).If you brought the engine all the way down to rings, I should think you replaced your timing set, rod and main bearings, etc. You didn't mention any head work. Oil may be sucking down the valve guides due to old-hard umbrella seals. Since heads are such a majorly important part of your engine, you should at least grind the seats and replace your seals. Cleaning the rocker assemblies costs nothing.
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By tnt56 - 16 Years Ago
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a little trick that we do for seating rings is have the car sit at idle put a rug or cardboard in front of the radiator then put on high idle watching the temp gauge let it warm up to 220-230 degrees and then pull rug or cardboard away, then put a box fan in front of the radiator to help cool off faster you might want to do a couple of cycles like this.
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By Gordie T - 16 Years Ago
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Just to reiterate what others have said about the cam. While setting my rockers, we noticed that #4 exhaust was not opening up all the way. We figured my cam lobe on #4 exhaust was pooched. I am still driving it but boy do I get smoke from my oil tube and road draft pipes, just like you said. I am going to wait till next winter to fix it and hope my piston doesn't get too hot. Sometimes also, I've heard that raw oil will be blown out of your road draft if your rings are not set, mostly when the engine is cold and the rings have not expanded.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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yeah i need to do some load runs. i tried this before but with my timing issue any time i tried to load it down I'd get a bunch of backfires and couldn't put my foot in it. i think we have a storm coming in again this weekend and i don't have windshield wipers so it may not be till next week.
also i did not do a timing chain, i did a ring job, rings, rod bearings and gaskets. i did not even pull the motor to do it. i did however have the heads looked at, the seats and guides had normal wear and tear on it and "should have hardened exhaust seats installed" but if i go that far i might as well do a whole head job, and if i put that much money into heads i might as well get the higher compression heads, then do the work on those... sad fact is I'm on a budget here...
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By pegleg - 16 Years Ago
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I notice you asked about smoke on decleration. Nobody answered you. Usually oil smoke on decelration will turn out to be valve seals. Could be worn guides, or old cracked seals. That and the fact your compression numbers are low makes me think it's time for a valve job.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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It did not smoke till after the ring job besides that I had the heads inspected.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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"Normal wear and tear" does not necessarily mean good to go. It can mean there appears to be nothing out of the ordinary but it is time for a rebuild. Were the heads disassembled? The condition of the seals may be difficult to determine with the springs in place.
It is an easy job to replace the stock type seals at home. A spring compressor is the only special tool required. At the same time, you can clean, visually inspect, and lap the valves. All of this should be easy to do on a budget. And after all of this, you will know if it's about time to do a good rebuild on them.
Are you able to do a leak down test?
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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Yes he took out the valves and we looked at the the seats. Basically the heads were not new (of course) but they were not bad either if they had the hardened exhaust seats he would not recomend any work at this time however he made it a point to suggest hardened exhaust seats and that if I were to do the seats I might as well do the whole head job.
The heads are used but ok.
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By 62galxe - 16 Years Ago
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were new valve stem seals installed. if the seals are hard they will let oil past and create smoke. new rings probally increased the vacuum which can increase the leakage around the seals.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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The seals were not replaced.
Increased vacuum could make sense however the improved seal that would create more vacuum on down strokes would also cause increased compression on the up strokes. The compression numbers did not increase so its probably safe to say the vacuum did not improve either.
Perhaps the problem is not the heads but the rings that have not seated...
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By pegleg - 16 Years Ago
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If it is rings, most likely the oil rings were installed wrong or there's too much end gap. If it's not using a lot of oil And you get a large cloud on start up, the culprit is likely the valve seals.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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it doesn't smoke on start up.
it smokes a little bit from the crankcase, road draft, oil filler dipstick tube, which most likely points to RINGS. the smoke would have to get past the valve seats not be sucked back into the cylinder by the intake or pushed out the exhaust and flow through a second seal the, valve guides, in order for the oil being put into the cylinder by valve guides to cause smoke in the crank case, I'm not saying its imposable but common sense and critical thinking would say that it is improbable.
It smokes after its up to operating temp it smokes more at a stop light after a small load (stop and go driving) and smokes the most when i cruise at highway speeds. (get up to speed and let off the gas) the rings are not quite seated yet (as evident by the lower compression numbers.) there is too much oil in the cylinder as i create the lean condition in the cylinder by closing up the carb the cylinder temperatures increase and the only fuel left in the cylinder is the oil left by the improperly seated rings. thus a nice cloud of blue smoke. if i get back on the throttle just a little bit, cylinder temps drop and there is more gas in the cylinder, smoking clears up or stops.
the final piece of the puzzle, is the fact that the smoking has slowly begun to clear up as I've driven it. because of my timing goof i have not been able to do the 40-75MPH load runs to finalize the seating. I've done maybe 3 since i did the ring job, just running on ramps. from point A to point B. i need a sunny day to take it and do the load runs to get them to seat.
BTW how could you improperly install the oil rings? if the top and bottom keeper rings are in the right spot, the middle expander ring is non directional. actually the only directional ring in my hastings kit was the second compression ring, which i checked, no joke, 4-5 times before i installed each piston.
I know its hard to diag things over the internet, and really, i appreciate the help, but wouldn't it make sense to insure the rings are seated before i go blow another couple hundred dollars (actually closer to a grand, not to mention my time) because a couple guys on a internet forum who have never seen my car nor the way it smokes in person, have a hunch that its my heads? please don't take that the wrong way, as i say i appreciate that you are willing allow me to bounce ideas off this board and give me feed back, but really its getting a little ridiculous to assume its my heads and come up with every argument you can think of to support your theory, when you have no hands on experience with the vehicle you are trying to diagnose.
its easy to be an armchair mechanic and throw parts at a problem when its not your time money and effort going into it.
let me satisfy my theory that the rings have not set, once i do that if it still smokes I'll be right back on here to hear your theories about my heads.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Are you sure about that 1st ring? All 3 usually have some direction or order in which they are installed.
The thin oil rings usually have a ledge to hold the middle piece away from the cylinder wall.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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Yes, there were no markings on the oil rings according to the box if there is no markings it is non directional. I got 16 identical thin rings to go above and below the oil ring. The only directions were that the oil ring be installed first and the thin ones be placed to hold the ring into the piston, as you discribed.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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Yes, there were no markings on the oil rings according to the box if there is no markings it is non directional. I got 16 identical thin rings to go above and below the oil ring. The only directions were that the oil ring be installed first and the thin ones be placed to hold the ring into the piston, as you discribed.
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By simplyconnected - 16 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (4/18/2009)
Are you sure about that 1st ring?... I can vouch. I just got a set of Hastings moly rings. The first (shiny) ring is barrel faced and has no markings and no inside bevel. The second ring is cast iron with a dot on top and bevel inside. I've never known an oil ring to have orientation.
As I posted, your rings rotate. If you end-gapped correctly, and didn't twist the rings getting them on, you should be good. A ring too tight will break and the pieces can cause scuffing which ruins your piston-to-cylinder seal and promotes oil bypass. From this armchair, I will still go with; you should have done a valve job including new seals. Check out my 292 heads: simplyconnected's engine rebuild (still in progress) - Dave
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By pegleg - 16 Years Ago
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XNoctemNacimur (4/18/2009)
appreciate that you are willing allow me to bounce ideas off this board and give me feed back, but really its getting a little ridiculit doesn't smoke on start up.
if i get back on the throttle just a little bit, cylinder temps drop and there is more gas in the cylinder, smoking clears up or stops.
BTW how could you improperly install the oil rings? if the top and bottom keeper rings are in the right spot, the middle expander ring is non directional. actually the only directional ring in my hastings kit was the second compression ring, which i checked, no joke, 4-5 times before i installed each piston.
I know its hard to diag things over the internet, and really, i appreciate the help, but wouldn't it make sense to insure the rings are seated before i go blow another couple hundred dollars (actually closer to a grand, not to mention my time) because a couple guys on a internet forum who have never seen my car nor the way it smokes in person, have a hunch that its my heads? please don't take that the wrong way, as i say i ous to assume its my heads and come up with every argument you can think of to support your theory, when you have no hands on experience with the vehicle you are trying to diagnose.
its easy to be an armchair mechanic and throw parts at a problem when its not your time money and effort going into it.
let me satisfy my theory that the rings have not set, once i do that if it still smokes I'll be right back on here to hear your theories about my heads. I've been doing this for about 50 years, and do have a bit of experience with Y-blocks. As Dave said, oil rings CAN be installed incorrectly by twisting them too far, or more commonly using a standard sized ring in an overbored cylinder. I am not suggesting You throw money at the problem, only recommending that you might look at certain areas. You seem positive that the heads aren't the problem, and that could be right. However, many of the symptoms you quote indicate smoking in high vacuum situations, idling, deceleration and cruising. Most often this will be caused by bad intake valve seals or possibly a leaking intake gasket. This armchair machanic has said all I'm going to on this.
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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yeah, i really was not trying to offend anyone. that's why i spent 2 paragraphs trying to explain i wasn't trying to be offensive with the one liner...
however this thread is over a week of people telling me its my heads when from the first post i have explained countless times, countless ways that its far more likely that its the rings. but whatever, i guess some people are not satisfied till the whole engine is rebuilt, while that may be preferable, its not feasible in my situation. so one step at a time and careful diag before i throw parts at the thing.
The weather cleaned up today so tomorrow I'm going to do my load runs. I'll let you know how it goes. then as i said if it still smokes I'll be more than willing to hear theories about my heads.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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You asked for tips tricks or ideas. That's what the experienced folks here gave you. It all may not be what you want to hear but it is what you asked for.
At this point all you can do is see if the rings have yet to seat. If things don't improve soon, you will have to tear it down again and find out why.
One thing that comes to mind I have not yet seen mentioned. Perhaps it's just time for an overbore. Did you measure the piston and bore, check for taper and out of round?
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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I’ll add that the oil ring expanders can be inadvertently overlapped during installation which can also create some smoking issues that will not resolve themselves until torn back down and corrected. Removing the spark plugs and examining each in detail may give an idea if there are individual cylinders contributing more than others to the smoking issue as an alternative to an overall ring seating problem. And for installing the compression rings, a tool that spreads the rings is desirable versus putting the rings on by twisting them on by hand. I can typically tell on rebuilds if the rings were installed with a ring installation tool or by hand by simply looking at the wear pattern on the rings. Here’s some pics of a piston ring installation tool.  
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By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
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i was asking about tips and tricks on seating rings that's why i specifically chose that title for this thread not "my car smokes, got any ideas?", however, its no big deal. as i said i appreciate the help, and i really appreciate the effort.
i don't have a cylinder mic so i was not able to measure much i checked for taper via installing an old ring and measuring ends gap in several places, up and down the cylinder. it was not tapered from what i could tell.
i used a tool to install the rings but it was not that beast you have pictured up there. it lookes like a cheap pair of pliers that had cups on the end of it.
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