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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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I have been into y-blocks for some time now and seem to be plauged with blown head gaskets.It has happened on 3 separate engines.The latest one is 292 that has all fresh machine work,block has been decked and the heads have been freshly surfaced.it has happened with 3 different kinds of head gaskets.the first time it happened with felpro gaskets.the second time i used some no name brand .the third set is from Best gasket.the no name brand lasted almost 5000 miles.the best gaskets leaked after 500 mile retorque.I built a 292 for a friend and the same thing happened to him.this time both engines are leaking water into the oil,still has good comression.This has seemed to pop up after retorqueing the head gaskets after 500 miles.On both engines the head bolts were loosened and then re torqued to 80 foot pounds on the long ones and 75 on the short ones.assembly lube was used on the threads and heads.I tightened them in sequence according to the factory manual in three steps.first to 50 then 65 then the final reading.I have even tryed several different torque wrenches to make sure.I still have problems.Both engines have fresh machine work,I have checked for flatness and both are ok.What am i missing?Im so frustrated that I almost ready to give up on Y-blocks.I love the Y-block engines,but im loosing faith.
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By Daniel Jessup - 16 Years Ago
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Nathan, not to insult your intelligence at all, but did you know that the two outermost long bolts are are longer than the others and must be reinstalled in the same holes or they will bottom out in any other? Just a thought - if you didn't know that already
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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yes Im aware of the long ones on the ends.I even checked all the bolts to see if they were bottoming out .Everything seems to be in the right place,with plenty of threads to spare.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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The gaskets are laid down with no sealer,the threads are extremely clean,and lubed with assembly lube.Am i supposed to use sealer?they leak water into the oil,oil and filters are getting expensive.The last one blew the compression ring and stared idleing rough,and then started leaking water into one of cylinders.How did Ford get these things to be so relable?Did they use steel shim gaskets?I cant imagine replaceing head gaskets every few thousand miles?
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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on both of these engines the water temp never went over 190.This one in particular is in a truck that has a stock cam.I just cruise around in it never even revving past 4500 rpm.Im not even beating on this thing and it still blows head gaskets.??????please help i feel like im chasing my own tail!
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I have never read anything about installing heads besides torque specs and tightening sequence. I do things the way I watched the old timers do 50 years ago. The only thing I do differently is run a bottom tap down each hole to make sure I have enough thread, I then install the bolts dry just like they come out of the parts tumbler, and then when I retorque them, I do not back them off. I use a tool actually designed for a Mercedes to reach around the rockers. I set my torque wrench at the desired reading and tighten them until it clicks and call it good. I drove a y block daily for 15 years including commuting to college 90 miles one way and replaced heads on various occasions and never recall a failure. I'm not sure I have ever seen any one back bolts off and then retorque them.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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thanx for the reply.I wasnt sure if i was supposed to back off the bolts or not.An old mechanic told me to back off on them recently.I thought that sounded odd.All the water leaking started after the bolts were backed off.I drained all the water prior to re torqueing.I think loosening the bolts caused the water to leak?,I hope?Im hoping the water will stop leaking on its own.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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I back off them just slightly and then re-torque. If done carefully, it will not leak. If you completely loosen the bolts and the gasket has no sealer, it will leak. It should be fine after the bolts are re-torqued. If you know a lot of coolant was lost, it will be a good idea to turn the engine over to get any coolant out of the cylinders and change the oil.
I've either read, heard, or imagined that ARP recommends loosening the bolts when performing a re-torque so that a false reading is not acquired by overcoming the friction to torque an already tight bolt. It's much more technical than that but it's the best I can do this time of night.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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yeah,I backed off them slightly and then re torqued.Im not getting any water in the cylinders,just the oil.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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no cracks,the coolant seems to be getting pushed up to the push rod holes.the new Best gaskets dont have any material around the push rod holes.IT only leakes when its warmed up.this same thing happened on another engine.the heads were removed to investigate.no problem was found ,other than the water going into the push rod holes from the upper cooling passages.both engines are fresh with no cracks.the head gaskets are alwys installed with the word FRONT inthe front.the last set blew the compression ring first then started leaking water.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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a few years ago I purchased a 292 engine that was running .I noticed it had new head gaskets on it. it ran really good for a couple thousnd miles then wammo,same problem.I ended up putting the project off because of that.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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What heads are you using, and how much were they milled? Unposted heads and excessive milling can be a problem. What total ignition timing are you running? Excessive tiiming can cause excessive cylinder heat.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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on one engine im running unposted G heads that John Mummert prepped for street use.The other has 113 heads.Both engines run 12 degrees intial and 37 total ignition advance.I experience no detonation.On the engine with 113 heads ,it has barely made it 500 miles when this occurred.The one with G heads ran for 5000 miles before complete head gasket failure.Ive had several other Y-blocks over the years and none of them have been able to make it past 5000 miles with out blowing the head gasket.How do you guys make past 5000 miles without blowing head gaskets????These arent race cars they are trucks that we just cruise around in.My race car also does this.It has a 312 with posted G heads done by Mummert.I run that one hard.IT is usually good for about 5 passes and then it blows.Heads and block are flat.I use studs torqued to spec.Ive tryed every kind of gasket except the steel shim gaskets.Ive got thousnds of dollars in these things and its getting old.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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both heads dont seem to milled excessivly,I can still read the casting letters pretty good on the bottom.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are the common denominator. Is there anything you do during assembly that may compromise the ability of the gaskets to seal. Maybe any secret tricks you use to gain a performance edge? Maybe the alignment dowels you are using are preventing the head from clamping the gasket properly?
I've used Felpro, and both versions of Best Gasket head gaskets without problems. Blowing head gaskets is not a common problem with a Y Block. If both surfaces are flat and the bolts are installed correctly, and properly torqued, it will not leak.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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all of these engines run great,with good power .they sound great.my race car is a 55 gasser.Ive been able to get it into the low 13s with a 312 with flat top pistons.I just cant get past the blown head gaskets????????I love y-blocks ,but need help!I took out a real good running 351w to put in a y-block in my truck,now Im kickin myself for it.I cant use the truck anymore because its not reliable.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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yeah,It seems that it only happens to me with y-blocks and not other engines.I dont use any special tricks .Ive been a mechanic for 12 years and dont have any problems with my other Fords.The gaskets seem to blow in random fashion,sometimes in the middle and sometimes on the sides,and sometimes all over.I used new dowels and keep everything clean.I use an old tap to clean the threads out,making sure not to cut any new material out.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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I feel like an idiot,Im stumped on this and until I figure out what Im doing wrong I think I will take a break from Y-blockin.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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In the last 10 years Ive had this happen on 4 other y-blocks that I didnt even assemble.??? what gives ??,does anyone else have these problems??In fact Ive purchased a few other engines that other people were fed up with.they all had blown head gaskets on them when I tore them down.Another guy I know has the same problem.Ive been tryin to talk him out of putting a shevie scrub in the thing.I think hes fed up to.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I bought my first Y block 45 years ago and still have 3 of them and have put more heads on than I can count and blown head gaskets have never been a problem with them like a 6 cy with the long head. I still remember when the Ford dealership here got their first torque wrench and the old timers didn't use it because they had been "feeling" the torque for years and head gaskets were never an issue. I still think that either your bolt holes aren't deep enough, or your locator dowel holes aren't deep enough. I don't back the bolts off before retigntning, but apparently other guys back them off just to the point where they break loose and have no problems. I just a couple of weeks ago pulled the heads on an engine that I did a quickie valve job on 25 years ago because I am going to replace the engine with one I built and I rather store parts than complete engines. It had no burnt spots on the gasket. I would run a bolt into each hole and make sure it goes in far enough to apply clamping pressure. The bolts should go down easy enough that you can hang an 11/16 box end on them and screw them all the way down with one finger. And scratch around in the locator holes. Ford wouldn't have built y blocks for 10 years if they all had this problem.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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yes ,I have verified that the dowel holes are deep enough as well as the bolt holes.I have even tryed no dowels with the same result.To me installing heads and head gaskets are basic and remedial.Clamping one big hunk of iron to another is straight forward.Being a mechanic,Ido this stuff all the time.I have never had any problems with others.why would other engines that I never even touched end up in my garage with the same problem?I bought a 57 ranchero with 292 from some guy and I noticed it had new head gaskets on it.I wondered why?Soon after I blew one of them.As soon as I replaced one of them the other one blew.I repaced them both to only blow them again.I sold the car.I had another 57 truck with a 272. IT had one blown head gasket when I bought it.The old owner was frustrated so he sold it to me.I will double check everything again today,but Ive been repeating the same old stuff for the last year.I run over all tha ovious things and still cant come up with a legitamite
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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I cant find a legit reason for this to happen .Im very frustated.Ive had this happen on engines that Ive never even touched.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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How does this happen on every y-block that I encounter?Can they all have head bolt holes that arent deep enough?Is it possible that everyone of these has dowel holes that arent deep enough?3engines recentley and several others over the years?Did they ever have a head gasket recall?I had great success with 302 and 351w engines.I had one that ran mid 11 sec quarter mile runs and was street driven for years,no problems.even overrevved it and pinged it to death and still no blown head gaskets.The windsor engines only have 10 head bolts too.what gives?I would love to solve this problem.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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You say you turned the 1/4 in 11 with the small block. What kind of compression are you running on the Y block? A HC piston and a HC head will be too much. Other than that I don't understand it either. I bought an old Sioux valve grinder in 1962 from a closed independent shop and did a lot of y block valve jobs simply because I was young and the young people wanted me to work on their y block instead of the old geezers at the Ford house. Now I'm the old geezer. The only thing that it appears that you do differently then I do is backing the head bolts before retorquing. I simply put the torque wrench to them again and they usually turn less then 1/8 turn before the wrench clicks. I think any of the old timers will agree with me that y blocks never had a head gasket problem. Nothing like the the GMC 6 inline cy of the same period that I also tinker with.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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I'm running out of ideas too, but a couple of things I thought about. Has your torque wrench been calibrated lately? Maybe you aren't getting as much torque as you think. I know, the small blocks have been torqued with it too. Also, torquing the long bolts to 80 ft.lbs. may have started stretching them. They are marginal at 75 I have found. I am using 1/2" bolts on my F code drag car, torqued to 85 and 75, and have not blown a gasket in almost 2 seasons of racing. Calculations based on performance shows I have run as high as 485 RWHP. Blower boost reaches 14 psi. 8.0 compression ratio.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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im running stock pistons on all of the engines.Im looking in on the torque wrench being calbrated correctly.Ive tryed 3 different rediculicly expensive torque wrenches from snap on.Today it seems that my truck has stopped leaking water into the crankcase so I filled it with oil again and drove it around for an hour and no water in the oil!It seems like it stopped.I tore down the other engine a couple hours ago and found that water actually leaked in the lower corner thru the lower rear head bolt.Im stumpped.It leaked along the outside where the block meets the head.???It also leaked into the crankcase through the push rod holes. eventhough my truck is longer leaking water Im afraid to drive it.and another note the "small block" is all FORD Im a Ford guy for life! Thanx for listening
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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yes ,maybe 80 is a bit much?I think I need to look into that too.
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By John Mummert - 16 Years Ago
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Hi Nathan, haven't talked to you in quite a while. My only suggestion would be to either increase the differential of the steps you take in torque or only use 2 steps. 15 ft lbs isn't enough to get the bolt rotating before the wrench clicks. I would try 25-50-75 or 80 depending on which bolt. If you bought the Best gaskets some time ago there has been a change. After the fire rings are installed in the gasket the gasket is run through a roller to compress the fire ring. Armin Brown of Best Gasket told me he increased the crush on the gasket to get a better water seal. The fire ring can hold the head up, not allowing the water passages to seal. We torque the bolts 3-5 times during assembly to be sure the fire ring is compressed. re:water in oil. There are water passages near the pushrod openings or water can get into the cylinder where it will drain past the rings if the engine is not running. If the engine is running you'll get steam in the exhaust.
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By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
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Nathan, i appreciate the frustration you are expierencing and i think we are all stumped, all i can add as a mechanic and y block rebuilder for 40 years like most of the senior guys here, is Not to back off the headbolts, sure, tap the block holes, check the bolt thread lengths, light oil on threads, just to reduce unnecessary thread contact friction, torque down in 3 increments to 75-80 . i personally after that, go down the row of bolts again as final check once they have settled. I must say you seem to have 100 percent succes rate in blown h.gskts with these engines and apart from backing off head bolts during torqueing, things seem normal. One more thing, when retorqueing bolts when warm, do you remove radiator cap to relieve pressure, if you are backing bolts off on retorque, it coulld be letting water push in under gaskt?? just a closing thought.! Never had a blown headgasket in 30 years. Look forward to your next results. regards aussiebill.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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hey John,do you back off the bolts first?I always drain the water before re torqueing the heads.I relentlessly double and triple check everything since all this has started driveing me crazy.I amm currently useing the new redesigned Best gaskets on my truck.They did leak water after re tightening the bolts ,but have stopped leaking today.I poured 8 quarts of oil in the recycling bin and two filters.I hope its done leaking.Some of the other high performance engines that I have built have leaked a little water in the beginning,but later stopped.Water leaks seem to stop on there own.I keep blowin the sealing ring too.The longest Ive had one stay together was 5000 miles .They usually blow before then .,especially if Im hotroddin.For years I just avoided driveing them because of fear of getting stranded.
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By PWH42 - 16 Years Ago
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Nathan,are you aware that there are 3 different bolt lengths for these heads?The lower 5 are all the same length,but two of the upper bolts are longer than the other 3.The two longer ones have to go in the end holes.They will bottom out otherwise.People unfamiliar with these engines often don't know about this little quirk.The end bolts are only a little longer,but it's enough to cause a problem.Also, are you putting the gasket on with the square corner oriented properly?The square corner must be on the upper side,towards the intake. Like the other guys on here,I've had a bunch of Y-blocks over the last 50 or so years,including abusive use in dirt track cars.The only head gasket problem I've ever seen with them was because of out of place bolts.I've seen these engines with upwards of 300,000 miles that have never been worked on.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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Im aware of the head bolt lenths.I think Hoosier Hurricain is right.I think I maybe stretchin the bolts too much by torqeing to 80.thats the one thing ive done on all of these things.I think thats my common denominator in this mess.?Im stickin with 75 instead.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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never touched em,and blew em both
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By Fordy Guy - 16 Years Ago
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I once had a 428 Cobra Jet engine that had been rebuilt several times. When I got everything back from the machine shop I cleaned and assembled it. When I was checking my main clearances with plastigage, I wasn't even compressing the plastigage. I thought I had the wrong size main bearings, but miking the crank said no. To make a long story short, an old mechanic told me to get a new set of main bolts that this set had been stretched to many times and the threads on the bolts were binding up with the threads in the block. After I got a new set of bolts for the main caps everything was right on. Maybe something as simple as a new set of bolts might make the difference and retorquing 30,55, and 75. Good luck to ya, Bud
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By navydude89 - 16 Years Ago
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i'm new to the y-block field and dont know a much about putting engines together but i checked the factory shop manual for my 62 galaxie it said to use cylinder head gasket sealer on both sides of new gasket (but then later in the book it says not to use gasket sealer haha??) install bolts and torque them to 55 - 65 - 75 then it says in bold print, after the bolts have been torqued do not disturb them another thing i thought about having a later style block or heads with the steam holes and bolting it to an older style with out would that cause the head gasket to blow?? -jason
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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navydude89 (7/26/2009)
.....but i checked the factory shop manual for my 62 galaxie it said to use cylinder head gasket sealer on both sides of new gasket (but then later in the book it says not to use gasket sealer haha??) install bolts and torque them to 55 - 65 - 75 then it says in bold print, after the bolts have been torqued do not disturb themThe original head gaskets were the steel shim style and gasket sealer was indeed recommended on both sides of those. Most composite gaskets being used now do not necessarily require any sealer while the methodology of tightening will vary somewhat from the service manual. For the steel shim gaskets, the shop manual recommended torquing to 65 lbs, cranking the engine and getting up to temperature, cooling and then retorquing to 75 lbs. With composite gaskets, simply bring the torque up to the final spec in steps before cranking the engine and go on. Proper head bolt tightening is paramount. For composite head gaskets, use the factory recommended tightening sequence pattern and work up in steps to the recommended torque amount. Easy way to remember the tightening sequence is to start in the middle and work outwards in a spiral pattern as that typically works for all engines. I don’t back off the head bolts for any reason unless I’m removing the heads. Here’s a quote from the 1957 shop manual which still pertains to composite head gasket use. After the cylinder head bolts have been tightened to specifications the bolts should not be disturbed.
The original head bolts are notorius for stretching and especially after half a century of use so the bolts themselves can be a contributing factor. For this reason new grade eight bolts are typically recommended on new engine rebuilds. I prefer using head bolt washers in all instances as it does give a quick check for intial bolt depth by running the bolts down into their holes without the washers in place. Then putting the washers on the bolts just prior to torquing them in place gives that additional ~0.125” cushion factor. If coolant leakage is occurring where it’s a drip coming from the outside of the engine, then use a pressure tester to verify exactly where the leak is originating. Nothing worse than pulling the heads than finding that the leak is originating from a source other than the head gasket.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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hey thanx for everybodys input.I am useing new A.R.P bolts with an extra washer on them.Today I discovered about a quart of water in the oil.Im done with these engines.a couple days I ll post an ad to sell everything.I have 11 blocks and 4 sets of heads.The engine that Im currently haveing problems with is a 292 bored 3.830,has Mummert g heads and has a 57 T-bird 245 horse cam.It also has a Blue thunder intake.It has about 55oo miles on it.runs great but blows head gaskets.Make me an offer.Ive spent lots of money on y-block stuff only to blow head gaskets over and over .Why did someone go and re desighn the head gaskets if there wasnt a problem?
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Composition gaskets simply last longer than steel shim variety so consider it a change for the better although there is some compression ratio loss as a result. Steel shim gaskets were noted for simply rusting out over time but part of that was simply due to the nature of the gaskets being as thin as they were. I ran the 0.015” thick gaskets early on on the 427 Fords and they were notorious for rusting through within just months of putting them on. The steel shim gaskets for the Y are ~0.025” thick so essentially the same problem. I have zero issues with composition gaskets on the Y and have some that have been in place going on 20 years without any problems whatsoever. Biggest issues I see with any head gaskets would be flatness of the decks, tightening, overheating, and detonation. Agree with Tom in that backing off for a bit from this would be prudent and then take a new look at the problem. I’ll suggest pulling the oil pan and with a pressure tester on the cooling system, look for the water leak from the bottom of the engine. The leak can also be originating in the valley area but will require putting some plates over the water jackets at the intake side of the head if pressure testing at that point. Also draining the water and allowing the engine to sit overnight may leave a rust trail internally leading to the source of the leak. This only works with plain water and not with anti-freeze. If your torque wrench is over three years old, then consider replacement or recalibration.
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By Nathan Soukup - 16 Years Ago
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I finally figured out why I had blown gaskets in 2 seperate engines.The problem was NOT with the y-block at all but with me.It turns out my holley 4bl had been dripping after I turned the engine off,filling 2 or more cylinders with fuel.Me not being aware of this,tryed to start it and a blown head gasket resulted.I got lucky that I didnt damage anything else in my new engine.I guess those y-block rods are pretty dang strong!Ive had bent rods on other engines from similar problems.The engine has been running absolutly awesome now for about 5000 miles.NO PROBLEMS!The other engine that I had built for a freind had too much timing and was suffering from detonation.After driving the truck I figured that out,and reset the timming and richined up the carb.now the engine runs perfect with no pinging.Thanxs to everyone that was trying to help me!I love y-blocks and am going to keep building them.
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