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By Marc - 16 Years Ago
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So I get my new motor in after years of gathering parts, slapping things together whenever I have a little extra time & money. Start 'er up, and it runs nice, but lots of rocker noise. Fair enough, so I adjust them using the method described in the Y-book. Done that plenty of times on the old motor, so it goes pretty well. The noise dies down somewhat, but it's still there. My oil pressure is great, and I'm using royal purple break in oil.
Well, I figure, let's drive it a little and see how things go. After putting about 15 miles on it, the noise is getting worse. I pull the valve covers and check the rockers. Clearances are waaaaayyyy out. Pull the rockers off and the ball ends that fit in the pushrods are really worn down on about half of the rockers. Both sides, more wear toward the back than the front. New cam, New rocker assemblies. Needless to say I'm pretty p.o'd at this point.
Next, I take the rockers off my old motor & try them out. They always ran nice & smooth, no wear problems, good oiling, so it's worth a try. Install & adjust, and they sound pretty good. I can see oil coming out of the rockers and dribbling toward the pushrod ends. These rockers use the stock oil overflow tube on the end.
Sure enough, after putting a few miles on, the noise is getting louder again.
Looks like I'll be pulling this pig out & putting the old motor back in for the time being ( it ran great, I just wanted to build something with a little more power) as the car's been off the road for 2 years & I really just want to drive the car.
I'm ticked off enough now to just sell the thing or swap it for a 390, but I'd rather not go through all that for what could be a relatively simple fix. I remember back when I bought the cam there was talk of the groove not being deep enough on some. What's considered "deep enough"? Does this sound like a cam problem, or should I try blocking off the overflow tubes to pressurize the shafts?
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By 46yblock - 16 Years Ago
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Maybe the new cam has a drilled center journal when a grooved was called for, or the reverse.
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By Doug T - 16 Years Ago
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That sounds like a lot of wear for the rocker arm ball and socket in a very short time. Years ago I ran a 292 for several months by pouring a cup or so of oil over the rockers once a week. The engine was badly sludged up and I wasn't in a place to fix it. In that time the valves didn't go badly out of adjustment but the rockers started to squeek when they needed oiling again. The point is that a lot of oil isn't needed on the ball so lack of lubrication isn't likely to be the problem. Are the pushrod cups OK or are they collapsing? Unfortunately if it isn't a rocker or pushrod problem it may be the cam. If it is a cam problem it will happen quickly after startup. When you take the rocker assembly off put a dial indicator in the pushrod cup and see if the lift is anywhere near what it should be. If it isn't even close the cam is toast. If it is close you have the unenviable choice of checking all the lobes as well as can be done with the pushrod and dial indicator or taking it apart and a visual checking to be sure they are all OK. I installed a new cam several years ago and it got noisy fast, probably no more than ten minutes on the new cam (and lifters) and it started sounding bad even quicker than that. It was clearly the cam. For some reason the front 8 lobes were badly damaged and the corresponding lifters all went from slightly convex to deeply concave except the one that the mushroom end broke off completely. The cam grinder and I never did figure out why the front 8 lobes failed and the back ones were OK. When new, the lifters looked identical and were installed randomly. Keep us posted there is a lot of interest in cam problems right now.
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By mctim64 - 16 Years Ago
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I don't know about "Royal Purple" but I have had my share of cam problems (two flat in the last few months including Charlies race engine) and the only oil I will use on break-in now is Brad Penn. I know everyone here has their own opinion on oil but this how I roll.
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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Marc: For that much wear to appear so quickly in the upper valve train, sounds like insufficient oiling. There could be several reasons. Among them; Some replacement grooved cams have too shallow oil grooves. The incorrect or improperly installed cam bearings, as some cams were cross drilled & used different bearings. A plugged gallery coming up from the bottom, (were the block oil galleries cleaned internally really well when rebuilt?) And Royal Purple is synthetic, yes? Some "experts" don't recommend synthetics for break in, although I doubt that is the main problem. In the Classic truck series on the Y- Blk, Nov. 2001, Doc Frohmader discusses the cam bearings issues & there is 3 types of bearings pictured. I realize this info isn't definitive but I hope it helps. Hopefully, some of the engine gurus on this site here can be more specific & zero in on your problems.. Good luck.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I have been using ZDDP in everything I have that doesn't have roller lifters ever since zinc has been taken out of the oil. So far, so good. I am a firm believer in zinc. When I was a kid in the early 50's my father was a distributor for one of the oils that licensed the patent on zinc. He would call on people in a 1950 GMC pickup. If they were skeptical, he would have me scoot under the old GMC and drain all 8 quarts out of it. Then he would drive about 100 yards and turn around and I would put the oil back in. He sold a lot of oil, and I'm still sold on zinc.
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By Marc - 16 Years Ago
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The first set of rockers I had in there were the lock nut type, but I'm confident they were adjusted well, as much as a pain as it is to adjust them. The ones in there now are self locking.
The cam was definitely not cross drilled. I can't say I'm as sure about the alignment of the holes in the cam bearing. There's plenty of oil getting to the heads, but to me it looks like it's coming out of the rockers very weakly.
By the way, to run the engine and watch the rockers without getting oil all over the freshly painted engine, I took a set of chrome valve covers and cut a window in the top between the holes. Plenty of visibility, and the oil stayed where it belonged!
After installing the rockers that are in there now, I warmed it up and rechecked the clearance. While in there I could see that there was oil getting to the point where the adjusters meet the pushrods, because when I tipped the rocker back toward the pushrod I could see a film of oil get squeezed out of the cup. As I said though, when it's running, the oil appears to be barely dribbling out of the holes on either end of the pushrod. I'm not sure how strong that stream is supposed to be, so I don't know if that means anything.
I won't be getting back under the hood until Wednesday. When I do I'll recheck the clearance and see if I can round up a dial indicator to check the lift.
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By LON - 16 Years Ago
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Marc , Did you run the motor in on the initial start up ???( 2500rpm for 20 minutes ) .Are they stock pushrods ?? Are they mismatched (ie .different length ) .I would go with Doug and check the cam lobes with a dial indicator .Just my opinion. Good luck. Lon
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By Glen Henderson - 16 Years Ago
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Seems as if I remember someone recently discussing mismachined pushrod cups in that the rocker balls did not seat properly in the cup resulting in excessive wear.
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By pegleg - 16 Years Ago
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Glen, Had that thought too until I read the part about using the old set also. So two sets of rockers opened up. Doug's probably nailed it. Check the oil for metal particles before you start it again.
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By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
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I had forgotten about the push rod business. Unless the ball goes all the way into the cup, the cup will either spread or break. This is why I visit this site. It brings things back memories from the back fuzzy side of my brain. Hopefully your problem is something simple as this.
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By mctim64 - 16 Years Ago
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Here's the thread about the "Broken pushrod"
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic26796-3-1.aspx?Highlight=broken+pushrod
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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Another thought. You say the oil supply up top is weak. Possibly the Rocker Shafts are installed incorrectly, so the feed holes aren't aligned?
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By John Mummert - 16 Years Ago
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If you bought new rockers off ebay and they have black oxide coated adjusters that look like the self locking ones but require a lock nut, THEY ARE JUNK!!!!! A local engine builder bought some rebuilt rockers a few weeks ago and they came with the same black adjusters. They were junk in 100 miles. So are the Chinese VL-21 lifters that are sold cheap on ebay. There were some pushrods around about 1-1/2 years ago that had the cup end made too small. We got some from Melling but I'm sure other companies had them. Melling took them back and replaced them.
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By marvh - 16 Years Ago
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How can one tell which is the Chinese VL21 lifters and which ones are not.
Where are the other VL21 lifters made.
marv
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By John Mummert - 16 Years Ago
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There are only 2 part numbers for Y-Block lifters. Common numbers are VL-21 and 892. You will some times see 892 preceeded by some prefix. Not all VL-21's are the same. Sources include China, Brazil, Argentina and some are claimed to be USA made but I can't confirm this. Some of the 892's are the same lifters as the Brazilian Vl-21's. My experience is that the Chinese lifters are made of poor material. The are heat treated to the correct hardness 60-62c but the base material is soft. They begin to fail immediately but it takes a while to determine there is a problem. Higher spring pressure makes them fail sooner. We knew we had a problem after 15 minutes with 115# seat and 265# open. Some people have run them for up to 2000 miles in stockers before they knew something was wrong. The Argentine lifters have very thick heads, so thick that some times the cam won't clear the lifters when trying to install it. I don't know about the life expendancy. I've never used a set. We use the Brazilian lifters and have not had a single failure with them. They cost more than the others but it only takes 1 to fail to ruin your day. 1 failure costs more than you will ever save.
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By marvh - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks John for the quick response.
The reason I asked is I have a broken set of lifters.
Eleven by Sealed Power Muskegon Mi. AT-892 in reddish brown boxes marked "Made in USA",
Three Sealed Power by Federal Mogul in black boxes marked AT-892
One by TRW VL-21 made in USA and
One by Sealed Power Muskegon Mi. with AT-892 and B6C-6500A in a blue box marked Made in USA. this particular lifter has a very shallow base compared to the rest.
I also have set of the other ones from Ebay which are loose in a bag that frightens me as to quality.
The other sets I have used I got from yourself and a local machine shop over the years. Many of these engines have over 25k miles without problems.
marv.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
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John Mummert (9/2/2009)
If you bought new rockers off ebay and they have black oxide coated adjusters that look like the self locking ones but require a lock nut, THEY ARE JUNK!!!!!
Hey John,
I bought a set of those 3 1/2 yrs. ago. After you recommended the black adjusters being best, I assumed they were the same rockers YOU were selling (?). I DID notice the design/producer had changed a couple years back (replacement for lost jamb nut obtained from another seller came with an adjuster I didn't use, which had different thread). Anyway, after nearly 20K miles, lash still stable. Did YOU have trouble with the earlier versions? Can you be more specific re: failure symptoms with the "JUNK" examples?
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By Marc - 16 Years Ago
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Still not sure what the problem is, but I don't like the noises I'm hearing, so the motor's coming out this weekend. The rockers, cam, & pushrods were all new, purchased from John M. a few years back. I'm not sure of exactly when, I'd have to dig up the receipts. I recall when I bought the cam there was talk of some cams not having a deep enough groove. I checked mine when it arrived and it looked ok. Who knows, maybe it's not. Once I tear the thing down I'll have a better idea of what's going on.
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By Y block Billy - 16 Years Ago
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A little on metals, the company I work for makes conveyor chain and they had a factory open in china and thought they would produce some chain there. Well it a takes a large interference fit to press the pins into the chain, this actually makes the links stronger by equallizing the pressure around the side bar. As it turned out the chinese factory could not produce steel strong enough to allow this large interference fit and the sidebar would crack when the pins were pressed in. I was in China for a month and discovered that their formula for making the steel cannot compare to other countries. Their raw materials and processes will just not allow them to make a quality grade metal strong enough to make our chain. Needless to say the company wasted lots of time and money only to move the chain assembly back to US. Very confidential so no names are mentioned but stay away from any Chinese made metals, they plainly cannot produce near the hardness or quality of other countries metals. Lifter , cam failures, same reasons.
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By Marc - 16 Years Ago
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It took a while, but I finally dug into the engine. Sure enough, I'm fishing chunky lifter bits out of the oil pan. AT least one cam lobe is wiped out, a few more don't look so hot either. Looks like I've got a little work to do. At least the old motor is back in the car and running well, even though it tends to mark its territory.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Reading through this topic I see some discussion about inferior lifters.What is the consensus about original Ford lifters.Just curious about why they would not be used instead of aftermarket?Marc,Sorry to hear about your motor.
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By Marc - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks Mark. It sure is a pisser, considering the big $$$ I've got into this thing. Busted lifter & all, the thing still ran like a scalded cat, and sounded real sweet through the smitty's. Had a real nice bark to it. This motor's going to sit in pieces for a while until my future's a little more certain. For those of you on the east coast or who follow aviation news, I work at the Pratt & Whitney plant in CT that's slated to close next year. This thing will have to wait until I'm sure of a steady income.
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By John Mummert - 16 Years Ago
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Marc, I looked through my records and found a receipt from 2003 for 2 cams and 2 sets of lifters. These were Schneider cams, a 256F and a 264F. I don't know which one was in this engine. The lifter manufacturer was most likely Stanidyne but that's a guess at this point. Overall we had good luck with their lifters. This was before the Chinese lifters hit U.S. shores and after Eaton Corp. quit making Y-Block lifters. I'll try to help you if I can. FYI, the Schneider cams lash @ .012-.014", not factory spec. That's where a lot of the noise was coming from. 2003 was also before we started cutting the grooves in the cams for oil flow. Daniel: if your adjusters are still good after 20K, they must be made correctly. If yours were defective they would have worn out in <1000 miles. re: rockers and adjusters, I don't use the black adjusters.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
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oldcarmark (9/21/2009)
Reading through this topic I see some discussion about inferior lifters.What is the consensus about original Ford lifters.Just curious about why they would not be used instead of aftermarket?
I believe it's a metal hardness/compatibility problem. FoMoCo (steel?) lifters would likely work fine with earlier NOS Ford cams.
Much discussion re: this subject can be found in Y-Block Mag. back issues.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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What is the material used (preferred) for the newer lifters that are compatable with replacement camshafts?
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By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
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Cast iron.
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By Ol'ford nut - 16 Years Ago
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How many have drilled holes in the lifter boss so oil drops down to the lifter and cam from the valley? Couldn't hurt, and may keep lifter and cam from wearing.
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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Drilling the lifter bores is a controversial procedure & if done incorrectly will ruin the block. Ted has commented on doing it previously...
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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I'm a consumer of steel myself - but in my "Machinery's Handbook" (which is sort of the all everything encyclopedia of the machinists trade) it says: "Chilled Cast Iron" - Gray Cast Iron with a hardened surface made of "White Cast Iron" - produced in a mold that has a metal "chill" for cooling the molten metal rapidly in a specific location. Compressive strength of the "chilled" surface can exceed 200,000 psi. This chilled White Cast Iron is brittle but very wear resistant - nearly all of the carbon in the hardened zone is "cementite" - in other irons it is graphite. It looks like there are several other versions of cast iron that can be hardened (by alloy or combined carbon)- but none have spec's like the 200,000 psi listed above. It would be very resistant to scoring (surface welding) - the thing that destroys camshaft lobes.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
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I think I remember something about some early Isky cam & lifter kits being super hard (chilled?), and a warning about mixing them with modern iron parts?
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By Ol'ford nut - 16 Years Ago
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Here ia a site with everything you want to know about cast iron- http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/castiron.html
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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Just a SWAG - but I'd say the "hardface" was a sprayed metal technology that was applied to an "almost finished" lobe. Then it got finish ground to the specific contour and size. Wonder how thick the hardface was applied? Don't know that the chilled lifters would be so bad on the softer cam - the scoring resistance would be good for that material too.
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By Ol'ford nut - 16 Years Ago
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Info from Isky catalog Isky Chilled Iron Solid lifters are compatible with our hardface overlay series cams only (not for cast billet type cams). Hardened by the chill-plate method which produces ideal surface grain structure,
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By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
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Its sure interesting but confusing, i can still remember hard faced cams here being built up with "stellite", i still have a couple and are hard and not a mark on them! i dont know much about whats right or wrong with the lifter subject but have allways used the cast iron lifter with the thick base and FOMOCO marked on it. An old timer that built and raced engines for 40 yrs swore by them and i followed his advice. I often wonder with lesser quality materials and good manufacturers gone that Cam break in procedure is often neglected along with incorrect oil, all helping in premature cam failure being more common. I would assume with race engines having more aggressive lift cam, higher valve spring pressures, will encourage the problem regardless. I have seen quite a few examples of premature camshaft and lifter wear of other engines, ford and C(%^&*) at my engine builders, so is not confined to our engines. Bottom line, who knows what quality anything is today! These are only my observations on the subject, best regards bill.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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It sounds like you are able to see that the adjuster screws are wearing. If that's right, try a new set. Do your adjusters use a lock nut?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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There has been a long time ago discussion about cast iron lifters. Apparently there were two types, hardenable iron and chilled iron. At that time nobody had any information about the difference. So, I'll ask again. Does anyone here know the difference?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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Steve, Dan, and Nut: Thanks for the replies. This is the info Bruce at YBM has been searching for for years, and no one has clarified it for him. I think he'll like these responses. And Dan, I looked at an old Isky catalog, and his cams with "Hardface Overlay" required the use of chilled lifters, your memory is good. His "hardenable iron" lifters were to be used on his non-hardfaced cams. From these replies I conclude that chilled lifters will probably wear out a currently available cam, and if a hardface cam showed up, it would probably wear out hardenable lifters. The link shows that there is more to lifters than hardness, the composition of the iron is crucial. Scary, these offshore lifters.
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