|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
alright, I want to try to do my timing set.
the reasons being,
-rough idle/miss,
-low vacuum (14)
-low compression (all roughly 85-90 psi. across all cylinders)
-poor performance, (i have to ease into the throttle, anything more than 3/4 throttle it will bog down bad especially climbing in 2nd gear on the ford-0-matic.)
carb is a brand new holley 350 cfm 2 barrel.
i have recently done all kinds of work carb, plugs, wires cap, rotor, points, coil, valve springs keepers and stem seals, and rings (that refuse to seat causing great amounts of oil consumption and blue smoke, BUT rather than diagnosing that as a cause, lets say that is a symptom of the low compression issue)
first of all, is my theory possible that my symptoms be related to a slacked/jumped chain?
second i see there are threads about how to install the damper, however i am curious if there is a special tool i need to remove it or can i use the one "for rent" at the local parts monger.
3rd my y block book days nothing about degreeing the cam is this something i should be worried about for a stock shoestring budget ride? i am not changing the cam just trying to get it to run right as it. and i know about the 12 pins at 3-o-clock alignment right side up not upside down as it shows in the book.
4th my y block book makes a big deal about getting the cover seal centered on the crank is this really a huge concern?
|
|
By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Sounds like your engine is toast. How many miles? How new are rings? If it runs it is not a jumped timing chain. Look elseware. What is the history of your engine? DO NOT BE SHY, TELL US TOO MUCH, NOT TOO LITTLE.
|
|
By crenwelge - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Has it run like crap since you have owned it or did it just start? The symptoms almost sound like a mismatch between a 56 or earlier carb and a 57 or later distributor.
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
The odometer reads just under 73000 it who knows how many times it has rolled.
The rings have about 800 miles on them. I did them last spring.
Other than that the car sat for what I'm guessing was about 10 years. I got it running and in the process of getting the kinks worked out I found a dead cylinder, 30psi the rest read 90. I re ringed them all the compression came up on that cylinder and now they all read between 85 and 90psi, but smokes and burns oil like a pig.
its probably safe to say that because of the compression was low to begin with there was a problem I have not found yet that keeps engine from running correctly and the rings from seating.
The compression numbers are relatively close. There for I have ruled out valve seals and bad rings because what Ever is the problem is effecting all the cylinders equally, before and after the ring job. Thus I have started to suspect cam timing.
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
|
crenwelge (9/4/2009)
Has it run like crap since you have owned it or did it just start? The symptoms almost sound like a mismatch between a 56 or earlier carb and a 57 or later distributor.
The compression has been crap since I've owned it. I would say its probably never run to its full potential since I've owned it. Some days are better than others but it has never been right.
Its a 59 and it has a mechanical advance the carb is less than a year old so that's not the case
|
|
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Im supprised that with new rings and can only assume bore not too worn and ring end gaps correct that it ,s blowing smoke. With low vac at 14 it would be worth rechecking plug gaps, correct plug heat range , point gap and timing, and then recheck vacuum reading. thats my thought on the symptons described at this stage . best regards aussiebill.
|
|
By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
|
|
You might have a cam that has worn out. Pete
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
|
aussiebill (9/4/2009)
Im supprised that with new rings and can only assume bore not too worn and ring end gaps correct that it ,s blowing smoke. With low vac at 14 it would be worth rechecking plug gaps, correct plug heat range,point gap and timing, and then recheck vacuum reading. thats my thought on the symptons described at this stage . best regards aussiebill.
I've set all the ignition gaps and timing to spec. the plugs oil foul bad because of the ring issue.
the smoke is because the rings refuse to seat, the rings refuse to seat because there is something else wrong with the engine causing uniformally low compression across all cylinders. thus i fix the compression issue then i can deal with seating the rings.
if the compression #s were not so uniform i could see rings or valve seats, but for all of them to be in the same range i suspect something is wrong with the cam, either its not timed correctly or its flat, so I'm going to start with the cheapest route first, and do the timing set.
i know the easy answer and the best way to deal with it all is just to rebuild it, however until i get my daily driver paid off and this wedding paid for, I'm on a shoe string budget and can't justify spending much at all on this car at this time.
what tool does everyone use to pull off the damper? will any puller work?
|
|
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
|
|
The puller to use is a universal style same as used on steering wheel.The damper is tapped to take 2 bolts threaded in.You will likely have to do a real good clean upon the damper to find the holes but they are there.In order to undo the large bolt which holds the damper on you need to stop the motor from turning.I bolted a piece of chain to the hub and around the vehicle frame and used a length of pipe which fits over my 1/2 inch ratchet handle to undo the bolt.Its on there VERY tight.To reinstall I bought a longer bolt(fine thread) and a large washer to "pull" it back on until the stock bolt would thread in.The pullers are cheap to buy(buy a good one) and I have used mine MANY times over the years for steering wheels and dampers.A good quality tool pays for itself many times over.
|
|
By DANIEL TINDER - 16 Years Ago
|
Re: centering the timing cover/seal:
Minus the special Ford tool, I assume the damper will just push on far enough to insure proper centering before the cover is bolted down?
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
a puller set like this?
|
|
By PWH42 - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Yes,that is the kind of puller to use for the dampener.
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
Great, starting to feel confident about this job.
Anyone have problems centering the cover?
What about degreeing the cam? or should I not worry about for now and just swap the gearset and make sure I have my 12 pins
|
|
By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Check out Harbor Freight for a puller. $12.95. It is not a Snap On but then your car ain`t a BMW. Pete
|
|
By LM14 - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Your compression is low because the rings won't seat. Not, that the rings won't seat because the compression is low. It could also be bad valves, head gaskets or excessively worn bores. I have some basic questions and do not intend to talk down to, or in any way insult you, I simply don't know your mechanical aptitude and I think some basic questions need to be asked. Were the cylinders checked for bore size and taper? Did you hone the cylinders when you put the new rings in? What grit hone? Ball hone or rigid? What type of rings? Are you sure you installed the rings right side up? Did you stagger the ring gaps? Did you check the ring end gaps? Were the ring groves clean before the new rings went on? Any scoring on the old pistons? Scoring on the cylinder walls? Have you run a leak down test on the motor? Were the heads rebuilt or just new springs and seals? If you didn't hone the cylinders -or- the cylinders actually needed to be bored but you didn't want to buy pistons so skipped it -or- there is excessive taper in the bores, the rings will never seat. If you didn't hone the cylinders to the pattern and roughness that the rings require, they will never seat. It's not one hone fits all. It depends on the ring material and face. Did you have a good cross hatch pattern on the final honing? If the rings are in upside down, they will not use compression to force them out against the cylinder walls. Some rings it doesn't matter but most have a top (taper on top inner edge, dot on top, etc.). As you can see, there are a ton of things that will effect your rings. I wouldn't be too worried about degreeing the cam on a driver. It's probably not perfect but it worked for the first 50 years. You can make it perfect but the gains are minimal on a stock street motor. JMO. I would perform a leak down on each cylinder to find the actual source of the compression loss. You might be suprised. Good luck, SPark
|
|
By paul2748 - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Did you hone the cylinders before reringing?
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
i honed it, i used a bluepoint hone that looked similar to a 3 jaw puller, It did not have the grit rating but was marked as "fine" i was using a hand drill in chassis so i'm sure the cross hatch was not machine shop perfect but it looked fine and was close to 45*
i don't have a cylinder mic but i measured end gaps in a few spots up and down the cylinder, it did not appear to be tapered, everything seemed to be within spec. i staggered the gaps and triple checked to make sure everything was right before i installed the piston. there was no scoring on the piston. i used a hasting cast set.
if the rings are the problem explain to me why 7 out of 8 cylinders gave me the EXACT compression numbers BEFORE the ring job. and after the ring job all 8 are within 5 psi of each other AND the original numbers AFTER the ring job. i could see the rings or even the valve seats being the problem if a couple were low and a couple were ok but they're ALL low ALL down the same amount. cylinders don't all warp and taper at the same rate, rings don't all fail at the same rate, seats don't all fail at the same rate. therefore there HAS to be something effecting all cylinders equally, hence my suspicion of the cam, specifically cam timing. if the valves are closing late on the compression stroke, all cylinders will show low compression by the same amount. if the intake valve is opening and closing late the manifold vacuum will be lower.
the rings have not seated after all this time because there was never enough compression to push them into the cylinder walls and properly wear in.
|
|
By 62galxe - 16 Years Ago
|
|
how much cylinder wall clearance to the piston was there. if the cylinders have enough wear you will have low ring tension. not sure if i worded that correctly.
|
|
By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
|
|
YOUR ENGINE IS dead. No amount of effort will revive it. Start over, ie new cam, pistons, bearings, et all. Better yet get another one.
|
|
By LM14 - 16 Years Ago
|
|
I agree with Pete. It's not a timing chain issue, it's a worn out motor issue. New rings aren't magical. You tried and it didn't work. My guess is it needs bored and new pistons. Was there any ridge at the top of the cylinders? If there was enough to catch your fingernail on, you need bored. Sometimes we get lucks and there will be a very slight ridge and a good hone and properly fit set of rings will buy us some time but if it's too worn there is no way around boring the block. It doesn't take much te seal rings, you are asking yours to do too much. What was the end gap on your rings when they went in? SPark
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
|
Pete 55Tbird (9/6/2009)
YOUR ENGINE IS dead. No amount of effort will revive it. Start over, ie newcam, pistons, bearings, et all. Better yet get another one.
sounds like some one just offered to buy me a new motor.
|
|
By XNoctemNacimur - 16 Years Ago
|
I had 13 pins between the marks. Thanks for your help in changing the timing set.
Now that its timed correctly and the engine is running as it should let's see what happens with the rings, I'll keep you posted.
|
|
By LM14 - 16 Years Ago
|
|
How about an update? Did your rings seat after fixing the timing or do you actually need to bore it? SPark
|