Rough Idle-How do I diagnose?


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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
I am still having a problem with a rough idle on my 292.The motor is stock and last year I added the "B" manifold and later distributor as well as a 390 CFM Holley(newer 8007 model).Plugs are good and wires are new.Plugs not showing any abnormal colors.The motor runs great at any speed-except idle.Carb is propely adjusted for mixture and turning screws in cuts off fuel as it should when working correctly.I have readjusted timing backing down a bit from maximum vacuum using the gauge instead of a timing light.I have done a check for vacuum leak and found nothing.If I use a compression gauge what am I looking for as far as possible burnt valves?This motor was rebuilt many years ago and its possible hardened seats were NOT installed at the time and I am thinking maybe valves are starting to go.Any other suggestions?The rough idle has only started a couple of months ago-was not there when I changed manifold etc.
By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
Where is the idle speed set?

Are you running ported vacuum to the advance?

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Steve,Idle is set just above stall speed in drive.Enough that there is a "clunk" when shifting into drive and car "creeps" ahead with brake released.I don't think its too slow idle speed.If I turn idle up the ported vacuum advance opening is exposed.The advance is hooked into the ported oulet so no  vacuum advance at idle speed.I tried unported and made no difference.I do have a 1 inch phenolic spacer under carb and heat crossover is blocked.The problem is worse at full operating temperature and its not above 75 ambient here now.Thanks
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
Hi, i am wondering if you should go over the valve adjustment, just in case theres some seat or lobe wear. let us know if you work it out, best regards bill.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Thanks for the input Bill.I have redone the adjustment 3 times and I am confident that is not the problem.I have seen this type question posted every so often.Its much more noticeable at full operating temperature.As far as lobe wear or valve seat thats kind of my question.How can I diagnose that condition without teardown.I seem to recall compression readings can give an idea of valve condition.
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
Usually valves not seating show a much lower compression reading than rings, would you know what vacuum reading the engine shows when missing? it can be most accurate guide to engines condition. regards bill.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Bill,At idle out of gear I have 19 inch vacuum with only a slight varience of less than 1/2 inch as it runs.This is NOT an indication of valve problems or cam lobe wear according to the diagrams and info supplied with the gauge that I purchased about 30 years ago.So where do I look for the cause?
By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
Are you running a Pertronix ignitor or on the points now? I've been thinking that maybe its just not getting 100% fired.....the odd missing spark here and there. Nothing sounds too much amiss with the carb and valve settings.

How about the transition as you accelerate from stop? Smooth or hesitation in any way? The bird tranny always starts in second and it stumbled a bit for a while until I got the primary float level to where it liked it. I just had it a little too far on the lean side - which will cause the odd misfire too.

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello Steve! I have an accel unit in it.As far as stumble etc I have none once warmed up.As far as your thoughts about misfiring thats what it feels like.Doing a visual on the plugs doesn't show anything.Why would it only be a problem at idle and not under load when driving?Any thoughts on what to check out?As I stated prior the vacuum gauge shows only a slight variance in reading at idle.Thanks
By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
Do you have a dwell / tach you use for tuning? What kind of dwell does the Accel chip apply to charge the coil at idle? You hook up the test lead just as though the coil was being operated by points.

I've got an Accel "HEI" four post operating module that I've done some tests on. HEI units don't use a ballast resistor - they lower the dwell time at low RPM to lower the heat load on the coil (which runs on full voltage).  The chip in the control module just keeps raising the dwell time as the rev's rise - Jeff Morgan (my favorite local mechanic) told me he has seen some of the HEI chips do 35° at higher revs - and as low as 12°-15° at idle. 

I wouldn't be surprised for Accel to have engineered their points replacement unit off the HEI chip (or similar). What sort of total coil / ballast resistance was recommended with your unit? Maybe the dwell time it is allowing (at idle) is too small compared to the resistance in the coil primary circuit (on the edge of too weak a spark) - but then as the rev's (and the programed dwell) go up, things begin to work better.  

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hi Steve! This accel 2020 kit requires the use of the stock resistor or one of their coils with the builtin resistor.Very emphatic about that warning the unit could destruck without it.I do have a dwell meter and I will try and get it to read off this unit.Any other thoughts.It does seem to act like a misfire at idle as you described.With good vacuum reading the motor is in good shape mechanically you think?
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
Well, thats a good vacuum reading 19, so at least you,ve ruled that out, i,ll stand by and see how you do with the accel. best regards bill.
By Tom Compton - 16 Years Ago
I have used a timing light on each plug wire to see if that plug is firing at all or intermitently.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Thanks Tom! Thats a good suggestion.Timing light along with the dwell meter I will do a couple of checks.
By Ted - 16 Years Ago

You might try disconnecting the vacuum line to the distributor and plugging it temporarily on the carb side.  If the idle smoothes out, you have too much ignition timing at idle which could simply be a result of using a direct vacuum source for the distributor versus ported vacuum.

By PWH42 - 16 Years Ago
Mark,in the last year or so I've had a similar problem with 3 of my Fords.A 94 Explorer, a 94 F-150 and my 56 Fairlane.They all developed a miss at idle,but ran fine at speed.The plugs and wires were all  fairly new.Believe it or not,the problem with all 3 was one bad plug.These were the same Autolites that I've been using for years but Autolite must have made a batch of defective plugs and I was lucky enough to get at least three of them.In each case the plugs only had about 3,000 miles on them.They looked fine,but replacing the plug in the missing cylinder cleared up the miss.So,if you're using Autolites,maybe that's an area to look at. 
By 55vickey - 16 Years Ago
I'm seeing a lot of the same characteristics with my 272. It starts so good, runs so good, but when it gets up to operating temp (190) the idle is horrible. I usually put it in neutral at the stop lights. Acceleration is great when I leave the lights, it's just the idling at temp thats bad and I hate to mess with it cuzz its so sweet the rest of the time. All the plugs look great, pertronix with flamethrower, plugs at .040, holley 465. I put a phenolic spacer under the carb, the carb is always cool, the fuel lines are cool, possibly the pump could be hot but with the acceleration like it is, it seems alright. Vacuum is 17 and steady, just acts up when its up to temp and idling. Gary
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Paul! How did you figure out which plug it was?I have a suspicion that it is an ignition problem-plug or wire maybe.I have changed the advance hookup from ported to direct and backed the timing timing down a bit.No difference.So I am still looking although I will be using a timing light as suggested on each cylinder and see what happens.Off idle its great so this is really starting to annoy!Sounds like Gary and I are in a similar situation.Thanks
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
Sounds like you,re getting closer to fix? loosen all the plug lead ends on the plugs, makes it easier to remove with hot running engine, get car idling with miss and  remove one plug lead at a time, noting any change in idle characteristics, the cyl that doesnt change much is usually the problem one. best regards bill.
By PWH42 - 16 Years Ago
Mark,as AussieBill suggests,with it idling pull one plug wire at a time until the culprit shows up.These plugs always looked perfect when removed from the engine,but for some reason they would not fire at low RPMs.I replaced the bad ones with the same kind and number and have never had another problem.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Latest update.I checked the plugs one at a time by removing the wire.No difference between each one.I tried backing off the timing back to stock setting and it ran worse.I think there has been some movement of the damper ring over the years and where it is set now using the vacuum gauge is pretty close to being only a little advanced from stock setting.I am going to have a borrowed compression gauge next week and I will see what that shows about engine condition.Anyone have any other suggestions on where to look for the problem?Question for Gary (55 Vicky).Do you have a PCV system installed on yours as I do?I just changed the valve to one for a 302 Ford.Didn't help my problem But but I am wondering if this system is causing my problem and his if he has one.Thanks
By 55vickey - 16 Years Ago
I had a pcv system, new carb has no port, so I'm running open line from valley pan to the air cleaner for venting. Back to pcv with the winter maintenance.
By Ted - 16 Years Ago

If you’ve ruled out the ignition timing, I’ll suggest you revisit the idle mixture screws at the carb.  Experimenting with the idle mixture when the engine is hot is easy enough to try and gut feel says the engine is lean so opening up the idle mixture screws some more would be a starting point.  Are both screws turned out equally or are they staggered.  From the closed position, how many turns are each opened.

 

On the four barrel carbs, the rear float level is important as there is a fixed idle circuit on the secondary side of the carb that also adds fuel to the overall mixture.  Shooting some carb spray into the eight air bleeds located on the fronts and rears of the venturies is also worth a try.

 

I’ll also add that too wide a spark plug gap can also make for an intermittent miss at idle.  You can try 0.025” gaps at the plugs and see if that helps in the short term.

By 56 big window - 16 Years Ago
it almost sounds like a dripping carb . It doesnt take much to cause a rough idle . if you look down the throat of the carb at idle you might notice a slight drip that would definately cause a rough idle . It should not drip at all. Be sure to chech it at the correct idle speed. Good luck 

Frank 

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello Ted! I tried a couple your suggestions.Plug gap at .028 was worse.Wouldn't run.Put it back to .036.Idle screws at 1 1/4 both the same.Readjusted valves again.A little better.I am going to do a compression test this week and see if there is not a mechanical problem like a valve going maybe.I have an accel points eliminator kit but not HEI .What is the effect of gapping the plugs wider say at .040? Thanks for your suggestions.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
I think I have the answer to my problem.I did a compression test-hot with carb blocked open.Cylinder readings were all over the place.I have 4 at 60-75,1 at 100,and 3 at 80+-.When I added oil to the lower ones the pressure only increased by 10-15.The plugs are not oil fouled and I am not seeing any smoke out the back on acceleration.My guess is the heads need to be looked at.The way it runs at anything but idle I am surprised at these readings.Any other input from anyone.
By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
Hi, If it does not burn oil then I would suspect that you cam has worn flat. Before you pull the heads get a dial gage on top of a couple of valves and check the lift. Go to Youtube and see if there isn`t a how to video. Pete
By gentz - 16 Years Ago
i second pete..that minor change with oil is not enough...you may just have a flat cam...
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Thats something I had not considered(flat cam).This motor had been running for who knows how long with no oil from the rocker shaft to keep the lifters and cam lubed.I now have that problem solved but maybe too late.I can't find that video on Youtube.Anyone want to point me in that direction or explain how to check the cam? Thanks for the suggestions.Hey Gary(55 Vicky).Have you thought about doing a compression test on yours?The problem you are having sounds a lot like the one I am having.Plugs look normal but idle worsens as the motor heats up.Question regarding the dial indicator.If I get ahold of one with the "magnetic base" is that going to work on this application or is there a different mounting I need?I found a video explaining how to use the indicator just not sure what or where I should be measuring the camshaft.Thanks
By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
Rocker arm oil does not oil the cam and lifters.  They are oiled by splash from the crankshaft/rods.

You could make a gauge to check your valve lifts, since a few thousands difference lobe to lobe wouldn't be that big a deal in this case.  A strip of metal, plastic, wood, with a notch to sit on the valve retainer and the end cut to length to touch the head surface would work.  Turn the engine until one valve is fully open, adjust the length of your "gauge", and check the rest of the valves at the fully open position.  Or use a dial caliper as a "depth gauge".

By cbass139 - 16 Years Ago
I know I will catch some flack but it was the only good pic. I could find of the process that john is talking about.  check out the pic on the bottom of the page. 

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=G2kUibvRUo8C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=valve+lift+dial+gauge&source=bl&ots=mjmwsTFVIq&sig=

K2YIZogD7vDUEEWn55W1si3xrDw&hl=en&ei=rwmvSqXbOoOHtge7762bCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=

onepage&q=valve%20lift%20dial%20gauge&f=false

By 55vickey - 16 Years Ago
The compression test I did in the spring had me between 100 and 115 on all cylinders. Thats not what I envisioned when the motor was built, and this engine builder believes in tight cylinders. It's almost as if rings never fully seated. Gary
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Thanks for the suggestion John.Question.If I am checking one valve on one cylinder is there a corresponding valve somewhere else I can check at the same time? Or if I have one cylinder at TDC with both valves closed can I check others at that time instead of turning motor over and over?I was just looking in my shop manual and the compression according to the book is supposed to be 155-160.Does that sound correct in your experience?
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
Mark, generally most good engines at cranking speed show compression around 125 lb/". Obviousley when doing comp test you have the carb throttle plates in the open position! just rotating engine 1/4 of a turn at a time will bring each cyl to TDC. Keep on going. best regards bill.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello Bill! I had an idea that the y-block should be around 125 when doing a compression test.The Ford shop manual says 155-160 which seems very high with a "low" compression 8.4 rating.My question is can other valves be checked in other cylinders when working on another cylinder?Saves continually turning motor to check all valves. Thanks for your input
By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
fMark:

There are probably more than one valve fully open at at time, but I haven't researched it.  I would probably use a remote starter button, hold the gauge against each spring down the line and bump it over until the "leg" touches the head, then go to the next one.

By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
For a compression test, warm up the engine to operating temperature, pull all the sparkplugs, with a fully charged battery and the carb throttle plate WIDE OPEN. And use a know good gage. My 57 312 has 155 to 165 PSI. Pete
By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
Mark, yes there is an old set of directions in Clymers ford handbook, i found it and says, with # 1 cyl on compression you can adjust 3,6,8 intake and exhaust, 7 intake, 4 exhaust. then rotate engine to # 6 on compression and adjust 1,2,5 then 7ex ,4in. Personally i cant see it and do them individually, then start engine and slip feeler guage under each rocker and feel the ease or slip of the guage and nip up or loosen any that dont feel right. Thats only my view if it helps. good luck
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
I got a basic depth gauge at the hardware store.Measures in 1/32 inch plus a nice conversion table on the back.I went one valve at a time and I think I was very accurate in measuring spring height with valve open and closed.Not much difference between any of the cylinders I don't think but you can maybe tell me how these look to you.All were between 11/32(.343) and 13/32(.406).This is the difference between spring height  valve open and spring height valve closed.I definetely did not see a great difference between any of the cylinders.The Ford manual lists lift at the cam as .259 intake and .257 exhaust.I don't know how to convert that to lift at the valve.Does this look like a "flat" cam to you or do the heads simply need a valve job?The one cylinder which has a compression reading of 100 is measuring the same at the valves as the ones with 60-70.Thanks 
By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
Mark:

Though there is some variation in lifts (did you notice if exhausts typically differed from intakes, could be the cam was made with more lift on one) I don't feel it is enough to cause your rough idle.  You have already diagnosed the problem, low compression on some cylinders.  Looks like a valve job is in order.  To convert cam lift to valve lift, multiply cam lift by your rocker arm ratio.  If you still have the original rockers, that would be 1.43.

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello John! It was suggested that the problem with low compression was the camshaft.I would much rather pull the heads than get into pulling the bottom end apart.With many members input I think the cause has been found!I will be asking for input again when I take it apart as far as head gaskets etc to use when reassembling.Thanks!