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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Ok, I forgot how this works. I've got a battery that keeps going dead like it's got a drain. So how is it you check for a drain? Remove the negative cable and touch a test light to the post and the cable or remove the positive cable and touch a test light to the cable and the post? I think it's one of the other but I forgot which .. ?? Thanks ..
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By Ol'ford nut - 16 Years Ago
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Easiest way is to take neg cable off and touch neg post of battery. If it sparks you have a drain on it. Then you have to find it!
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By lowrider - 16 Years Ago
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Either one. Then start unplugging things until the light goes off and you've found your draw.
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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ej: Is your car by chance equipped with an old style after market Amp Gauge? And are you running a generator? If so, the wire thru the guage needs to be about #10. A lighter wire will create to much resistance & the voltage at the battery will be insufficient to keep it properly charged. I know, I've been thru this scenario.. A side note is that many recommend going to a Volt Meter..
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By 55vickey - 16 Years Ago
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If you have any kind of updated radio or music system with a digital memory or clock it's always pulling off the batt, but shouldn't be enough to drain a battery. Unhook this first, it's a known entity. Gary
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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No this problem is on my daily driver. A Lincoln Navigator. So take the negative battery cable off and then touch what to what? I guess I missed it there somewhere ... Thanks guys. It's still there even after I got a new battery. Something is draining it. Not fast, real slow. A week of no action and it won't hardly start .. I had this problem on my truck one time, liked to have never found it but these unlike my '56 I can go to pullin' fuses. Thanks again ..
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By 55Birdman - 16 Years Ago
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Touch the cable to the post.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Doug!I just did an internet search for how to find the problem.Remove the positive cable from battery with key off.Close the doors.Hook a multimeter inline between battery and cable.Set it for amps(volts?).Should read zero.If it shows current start removing live circuits until it shows zero or much less than when you started.Possible you may have more than one drain on the battery.I had a similar problem with a 1980 F250 years ago.Turned out to be the voltage regulator.This was how I found the problem.Try unplugging the regulator and see if it reads zero.Hope this helps.
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By 56 big window - 16 Years Ago
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A lincoln navigator will always have some draw . You need to determine how much before you start a lengthly dianosis. Place an amp meter between the neg post and neg cable . make sure everything is off and the doors are closed fully . observe the ampmeter over a period of 5 minutes .This time is needed for the electronics to power down .If a draw is present, quickly touch the neg cable to the post and observe if the draw is still present . if it is, start pulling fuses to narrow it down . You need to start at the beginning though , and load test the battery and check the charging system. Battery connections must be clean, tight at both ends and free of corrosion . I know this sounds basic , but it is most often overlooked .
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks guys. I guess I'll start with 56 Big Window's suggestion. Sounds reasonable to me. The batter is brand new and posts are clean. Thanks again ..
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By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
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EJ - How old is the battery? It sounds like it is only holding a "face charge"......these new outfits go from great to gone in a very short span when they reach their "design life". New vehicles have all sorts of little lighting transformers and power supplies with a constant drain - and when the battery reaches a certain reduced strength level - they will kill it quick....
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Hey Steve, it's brand new (a week old). Exide battery. Anyway, I went out and checked every fuse in it. Did the ones under the dash and the ones under the hood. A previous post mentioned an alternator. Come to think of it I think when I had this problem on my F-250 several years ago, I think that's what it was then too. That's my next check and of course it is buried down in the bowels of the motor. Looks like I'm goin' to have to take half the motor apart just go get to it. It's under the intake manifold. I need to change the plugs too and I don't even know where they are. Not like my '56 generator which is right there .. Oh well, the modernization of machines, all for the better right? LOL !!!!
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By MikeLongIsland - 16 Years Ago
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The navigators systems have to go to "sleep" shut down after they aren't used awhile. When I was a service manager for Ford, they seemed to have a problem with the clusters not allowing the vehicle to go to "sleep". Have you checked codes yet?
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Well Mike, no I haven't checked. I don't have any kind of light on like "Check engine" but I do have a car chip that can plug into the plug. The next thing I'm going to do is take the wire off of the alternator (if I can get to it). I can sort of see it but it's waaaay down in there under the front of the intake manifold. It looks like getting that alternator off is goin' to be an absolute nightmare .. Thanks though, any ideas are good ..
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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OK, my ass is kicked. I got the alternator off and un-hooked and the test light still comes on so it's apparently not the alternator. I would have bet a hundred bucks it was the alternator. As I said before I had the same thing on my truck and that's what it was after I had pulled every fuse it had. Not here. I'm back to square one now .. don't have a friggin' clue ...
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By Ol'ford nut - 16 Years Ago
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Try this site- http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/tsbs/tsbsearch.cfm I've used it before for troubles
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By mr4speedford - 16 Years Ago
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The average new car is 100-400ma of draw shut off. You must have all the doors shut and make sure the hood light unpluged! Don't forget a stuck open relay too! Alot of times its a switch or input into the body control computer leaving it energized. Anything left plugged into your 12 volt power outlets inside? Let us know what you find!
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By MoonShadow - 16 Years Ago
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Any power converters plug in anywhere? Like cel phone chargers etc. Even if the item is not on to charger the converters still pull power. (just a wild thought). Chuck in NH
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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I checked that site and there was nothing there .. Thanks though. No I don't have anything plugged in, all the doors were shut and the hood light doesn't work. I am at my wits end. I guess I'll put the alternator back on tomorrow .. I just can't imagine. I've got posts on the Expedition forum. I'm hoping some Ford mechanic will come by. The Lincoln forum is useless! I hate the thought of taking it to the dealer ..... Why, ya reckon, it can't be simple like my '56?
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By 56 big window - 16 Years Ago
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Are there any aftermarket electronics wired in to this vehicle ? alarm , radar detector , crazy stereo ? remember to unplug those as well
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By mr4speedford - 16 Years Ago
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Vehicle Level Technical Service Bulletins All Technical Service Bulletins Electrical - Battery Drain
Electrical - Battery Drain
Notes
TSB 06-8-13
05/01/06
BATTERY DRAIN - VEHICLES BUILT PRIOR TO
3/24/2006
FORD:
2003-2006 Expedition
LINCOLN:
2003-2006 Navigator
ISSUE
Some 2003-2006 Expedition/Navigator vehicles built before 3/24/2006 may exhibit a dead battery due to excessive key off load (KOL).
ACTION
Refer to the following Service Procedure to isolate the cause of the excessive KOL.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
NOTE THE KOL VALUES LISTED IN THIS TSB DO NOT INCLUDE AFTERMARKET EQUIPMENT. TO PREVENT MISDIAGNOSIS, IT IS RECOMMENDED TO DISCONNECT ALL AFTERMARKET EQUIPMENT BEFORE PERFORMING A KOL TEST.
Test Setup:
Set the HEADLAMP SWITCH to OFF. Turn the DOME LAMP SWITCH to OFF (dome defeat - dome lamps do not turn on). With the IGNITION SWITCH OFF remove the key from the ignition. Open the hood so that the battery is accessible. Close all doors including liftgate and liftglass.
Disconnect the negative battery terminal (Figure 1). Attach a jumper wire between the negative battery post and negative battery terminal such that it can be easily attached and unattached like alligator clip ends. Attach a digital multi meter (DMM) as shown. Attach the negative battery terminal to the DMM AMP INPUT. There are typically two AMP inputs on the meter and they are labeled "A" and "mA" (or mA uA). Use the input that is fused for at least 1 amp of current; typically this is the "A" input. Attach the battery negative post to GROUND (GND) or COMMON input of the DMM (Figure 1). Set the DMM mode dial to mA or A (depending on the meter used).
KOL Measurement:
With the jumper wire connected as shown in Figure 1, the meter will show an erroneous reading - ignore it. Wait 30 minutes (so that the vehicle goes to sleep). Then disconnect the jumper wire and read the meter. You may notice the meter reading periodically jumping up in value. That is normal and is the body security module (BSM) or vehicle security module (VSM) polling transmitters and possibly the tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) transmitters. Use the lower value. If the meter has "average" reading capability, use it to read the average value. For example, a normal reading could be 0.019 A (19 mA) with a momentary periodic jump in the reading to 0.048 A. Use the 0.019 A reading. The 0.048 A reading is due to the BSM (or VSM) momentarily waking up to pole the remote keyless entry (RKE) or TPMS. If you set the DMM for average, you will get a more stable reading of about 0.019 A to 0.020 A.
The maximum average KOL current for a normal functioning vehicle in sleep mode will be no greater than 28 mA (read on the DMM as 0.028 A or 28 mA). A vehicle will be in sleep mode after 30 minutes of no electrical system activity. All KOL measurements are taken while the vehicle is in sleep mode. A KOL measurement of greater than 28 mA is considered a KOL fault/issue. When the vehicle is awake (not in sleep mode) the typical KOL for a normal functioning vehicle is 860 mA +/- 100 mA (read on a meter as 0.86 A or 860 mA).
NOTE IF UNSURE ON HOW TO READ THE DMM CONSULT THE DMM OPERATING MANUAL.
If the vehicle has a KOL issue, expect KOL readings of greater than 0.029A (29 mA) and as high as 0.96A (960mA) after the vehicle is asleep. Perform KOL fault isolation to find the cause of the excess current draw.
Fault Isolation:
Fault isolation for a KOL issue is done by removing a portion of the electrical system and rechecking KOL to see if by removing that portion of the electrical system the KOL reads normal (less than 0.028A). Removal of a portion of the electrical system can be done three different ways:
1. Disconnect one module at a time.
2. Pull fuses out one at a time (this will remove both modules and circuits).
3. Disconnect harnesses at various interconnects (this will remove modules and complete sections of the vehicle harnesses).
To isolate a high KOL issue disconnect a portion of the electrical system, wait 30 minutes, then take a KOL reading. If the new reading is greater than 28 mA, then reconnect the disconnected portion and then disconnect a different portion of the electrical system, wait 30 minutes, then take a KOL reading. Continue this testing until the KOL drops to below 28 mA. The portion of the electrical system removed that causes the KOL drop to normal contains the issue.
Exception - The BSM (or VSM), Cluster, and PCM contain bus termination resisters and should NOT be disconnected from the harness for KOL testing. Isolate these three modules last using the order and method listed:
a. Isolate the PCM using fault isolation method (1) and recheck KOL
b. Isolate the VSM using fault isolation method (2) for fuses F5 and recheck KOL
c. If the high KOL is present after all other modules have been isolated, swap the cluster for a known good cluster and recheck KOL
The high KOL is still present after all modules have been fault isolated, isolate for pinched harness circuits using fault isolation method (3).
NOTE IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT YOU RECONNECT MODULES, FUSES, OR A PORTION OF THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM PRIOR TO DISCONNECTING ANOTHER.
Removing a portion of the electrical system will cause the KOL to drop slightly. But ONLY the removal of the portion of electrical system with the KOL issue will cause the reading to drop to BELOW 0.028A (28 mA).
For example, a vehicle's KOL is measured to be 0.4A (400 mA). The dual climate control seat module (DCSM) is removed by disconnecting the module. KOL is again measured and found to be 0.34A (or 340 mA). The DCSM is reconnected. Next the power liftgate module (PLGM) is removed by disconnecting the module. KOL is again measured and found to be 0.022A (or 22 mA). The PLGM is the root cause of the issue because the KOL fell below 0.028A (28 mA) once removed. Removal of the DCSM did not cause the KOL to go below NORMAL.
If you use fault isolation method (2) or (3) you will need to further isolate the KOL on the portion of the disconnected electrical system. For example, if you pulled a particular fuse that fuses the radio, climate control head, and steering wheel switches and the KOL dropped to below normal, the problem could be any one of those components on that fuse or the fused circuit. To further isolate, the fuse would be plugged back in and the individual components pulled separately with KOL checked for each component pulled.
ISOLATION HINTS:
If the KOL is greater than 0.6A (600 mA), use fault isolation method (1) starting with the DCSM.
If the KOL is greater than 0.9A (900 mA), use fault isolation method (3). This is probably a short circuit.
WARRANTY STATUS: Information Only
Maybe this will help?
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks 4 speed. Wow, that's some heavy duty stuff. What activates the "sleep mode"? Does that mean if you open the doors and the lights come on you have to wait 30 minutes before you do anything? Any electrical activity? Or just wait from the time you unhook the battery? Or since you turned the ignition or engine off? I just got a Haynes manual and for the most part it's worthless. I'm goin' on vacation for the next 2 weeks so I won't be messin' with it. I really, really appreciate it though .. Thanks tons ... I apologize for this off topic post but some of the most knowledgeable folks there is is on here .. oh another thing, there is no aftermarket stuff on the car .. The only thing is a satellite radio but it is plugged into the power port and it's all un-plugged.
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By mr4speedford - 16 Years Ago
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Sleep mode is how the electrical system "calms down". Anytime a door, unlock button, or varius other input, turns on, it will power up the body control module and other computers to allow more functions to take place.
As I believe 56 big win posted, anytime you un hook the battery than re-connect it, the computer alot of times(depends on the vehicle) will imediately power up. The 30 min wait time is anytime the battery is un-hooked, door opened, or other input sends a signal to any of the computers. It's recommended to open all the doors and manually close the switches as you may need inside to check harnesses and fuses(forgetting to open a door before hand means waiting another 30 mins after opening it!)
Regardless, I think you need to do the amp meter test and see how big of a load your drawing and go pull fuses till it drops(to below 28ma), then based on the fuse, somebody here can give you some more input on which circuit to start looking at.
Give me the year of navigator and 2 or 4 wheel drive and I can provide the numerous fuse and relay locations throughout the vehicle.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks 4 speed. I guess I could just pull the fuse for the door lights etc? I don't know they would manually shut off. It is a 2000 4X4. Thanks a ton ...
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Well I checked the amps and it's .26 or there about. It jumps around a lot. That's about where it is more than anywhere else. So that's too high. I pulled the relay for the door lights so I wouldn't have to wait 30 minutes every time I opened the door. So far haven't found anything.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Well after getting back from vacation I tackled the problem again. I re-checked all of the fuses under the hood. I have three that draw power. One is the 4X4 switch, the air compressor controller and the anti-lock brake system. All total they are drawing 18 milliamps which don't seem like much to me. I think the allowable draw is something like 28 milliamps. At the battery, if I take the ground wire off and put an amp gauge there it is drawing .26 amps. Too much. Any ideas? I got a Haynes manual but it's worthless for this vehicle. It doesn't cover air suspension or 4X4 stuff.
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By mr4speedford - 16 Years Ago
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Ok, so you have confirmed you are drawing too many amps. When you said you found fuses that were drawing power, I assume the amps went way down when you pulled each fuse?
There is also a fuse panel about where your left knee would meet the dash behind the plastic panel, might try and pull those as well. Let us know what you find.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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I did 4speed, I pulled all of them and checked with a test light and then checked with a amp gauge. The only one I got a light on was the door light system which should be normal. As I said under the hood I did the amp thing on those fuses but the total just adds up to 18 milliamps, way below what is allowed. I have a brand new battery and it will almost be dead in a day if I don't keep a 1 amp charger hooked to it. I doubt it will show me anything but I'm going to hook my car chip up to it and see if it finds anything. Doubt it will because it's mostly for reading the computer and I don't have an engine light, but I'll try anything now. I may have to take it to the dealer and I absolutely hate the thought of that. That Haynes manual I got is just useless for this problem. Anyway, I sure appreciate your help.
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By ejstith - 16 Years Ago
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Well guys, we have went through all of this, I have checked and rechecked everything and I have found I have a bad brand new Excide battery! I charged it up to 14 volts, unhooked it from the car and overnight it went down to 10.4 volts. Hooked it to the car and it stayed at 10.4 volts. Put my hydrometer on it and the second cell is dead as hell. All of that and it's a damned bad brand new battery! I even took the alternator off .. damn, damn, damn!! Thanks a ton for all of your help.
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