Supercharger blow thru Carb


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By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Ok, I been driving around my 88 toyota MR2 supercharged for a while now, and once you've experenced boost you never want to go back to NA, So I have decided to supercharge my fairlane, I plan on using one of those short roots type Eaton M90 off 80s and 90s tbirds and fab up parts to make it blow thru the carb with the charger hanging off the side of the block, dump valve in between the carb and supercharger on the charge pipe, also its gonna be intercooled. Basically I can't affort a centrifugal type and I like to make stuff BigGrin . the only problem I think i will encounter is crank pulley because its a serpentine belt drive, (perhapse use one of those Power steering bolt on pulley and weld a serpentine pulley on it), and the carburetor.

I have a holley 470 truck avenger, and I have no Idea how to make it work in a boosted application in a blow thru configuration, and maybe a 470 would be too small now, probably I am going to need a carb that flows at least 570cfm.  Also I have no idea how to retain the PCV system as the manifold will be under pressure then.

also if anyone know if theres a supercharger like the M90 price wise thats more compact?
By Ted - 18 Years Ago
Have you considered using a pull thru rather than a blow thru for the carb?  This would solve some issues surrounding the boost reference for the secondary diaphragm that comes about when going to a blow thru application.  If you pressurize the whole carb (similar to the 65/66 Shelbys), then boost referencing the secondaries gets easier but new problems crop up in sealing the accelerator pump linkage and any other connections that must get to the carburetor.  Depending upon the amount of boost, you'll definitely need a larger carb and a 570cfm would be marginal at best.  I'm thinking more in line with a 750 cfm if you're going with a vacuum secondary operation and a 650 cfm if going with a double pumper.

And definitely do some research on the camshaft.  Blower cams like a wider lobe centerline.  Chuck (MoonShadow) is currently working his way through this with his own blown application.

By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
Holun,

     Further to what Ted said. Try to keep the static compression ratio around 8.5 to 1. You might want to go find a set of 471 heads. Y blocks seem to like more exhaust duration and lift with a blower, so work on the exhaust side.

    You can use a smaller carb if you blow thru it, but that creates it's own problems as Ted mentioned. Maybe consider finding one of the old spread bore Holleys, that would give you small primaries for some semblence of throttle response and enough airflow when you get serious.w00t

                                           Frank

By MoonShadow - 18 Years Ago
The enclosed carb setup would still be a blow through right? Just with the whole deal pressurized. I wouldn't have any idea how to set up a pull through carb on this rig. I don't think you can feed fuel through the McCullouch. I have considered the enclosure although the look changes from early McCulloch to a Paxton. I see carb enclosures on EBAY from time to time. They don't look that hard to hook up. Maybe that would be a good solution? Chuck
By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
I did some more research, Look like the Carter AFBs will be able to work as blow thru with out an enclosure with minor modification to the carb.



I looked at my engine bay over again today, I dont think the M90 is going to fit on the side of the block, I'll have to put it on top of the engine next to the carb. I guess I'll keep an eye out for some centrifugal type also while I am hunting for a M90 for a good price. or I can also go the turbo charge route, but I think tubo lag could be a problem.



and I just converted my car to a low pressure electric fuel pump too, guess I will need to get a high pressure pump and a regulator that have a pressure port to up the pressure with boost.
By GREENBIRD56 - 18 Years Ago
HoLun - 

Ever look at one of those WEIAND "Pro Street" roots blower set-ups? The blower has the carb mount machined into the top for a direct bolt on. The intake manifold has to be a simple open plenum and the nose shaft is extended out over the front of the engine to accomodate the belt drive. As designed, it actually has hood clearance on some vehicles - like a pickup. A "box" adapter might fit one onto a gutted "Y" 4 barrel manifold - but hood clearance will evaporate. The box could also be the aftercooler housing however. You always wanted a cowl induction set-up right? May have to find another hood to cut on ........................

What sort of inlet air temperatures occur on the "blow through" outfits that Hoosier and Frank are running? They don't have any aftercooling provision in their arrangements.   

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
No, I never wanted cowl induction style hood, the reason I want to do blow thru is because of hood cleance, also the M90s are dirt cheap, and the M90 should give the whining noise tooBigGrin

actually, I have a spare hood in my backyard rotting away, its got some rust holes in it, maybe its time for some styling mods. BigGrin
By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
Steve,

       Never measured it, but you can feel the heat from the blower in the ducting. Hoosier's car will be cooler, he's running a cowl induction, sort of, using the cold air plenum in front of the windshield. I have to run the original air cleaner, underhood. The cars do like cooler temperatures.

                                                                       Frank

   

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
I just remember something, what 'bout the vacuume advance?  The vac advance pot is not sealed on the back side, so I cant just tap a nipple there to feed boost to it to make it work... hmm
By Hoosier Hurricane - 18 Years Ago
HoLun:

First, I want to congratulate you on your grasping of the engine workings.  When you first started to post, and you were first learning, your questions were of the very basics of engine operation and repair.  Now you are thinking supercharged, and have a grasp of the little things that will be required to make it streetable.  ATTABOY!!!!

Now for the vacuum advance.  Just leave it unhooked and work out a suitable mechanical advance curve for it.  I know you have changed the distributor springs, so it may be as simple as changing to an initial advance setting that will give you about 34-36 degrees total advance.

John

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
thanks, well I try my best, especially since I work on car professionally now Smile



now that i think about it, maybe i can use the vacuum pot to do the oppsit when underboost to retard timing
By Hoosier Hurricane - 18 Years Ago
HoLun:

That's exactly how I have my street driven blower cars set up.  I set the total timing at 30 degrees with the vacuum advance unhooked.  Gives me over 40 with the vacuum hooked up, 30 with boost.  Keep in mind that my VR blowers make no boost at cruise, if your blower makes boost at cruise, you will have no vacuum advance.

John

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Looks like I will be going with turbocharger instead, more pipe less brackets and pullies and takes up a lot less space, I will need a set of those cross over type manifolds for that, other stuffs should be the same with supercharger set up.



going to try a single turbo first, if it wont flow enugh might have to do bi turbo.
By Glen Henderson - 18 Years Ago
HoLun, I have been waiting for someone to try the turbo thing using crossover mainfolds. Mummert brought up this idea in YBM a couple years ago. I have several sets of mainfolds and if you want a set let me know. You pay shipping and they are yours, just do a good write up on the install and how it works out.
By mongo - 18 Years Ago
hi Glen,

 I have some thought in the past, to that idea, nice size ones , are the ones that come on the old tbird super coupes  , and mustangs of the mid 80's 

        Dave  

By Teros292 - 18 Years Ago
You can look couple of pictures of twin turbo y-block on my website. http://www.dlc.fi/~teros/indexeng.html and there click y-block and so on... This is early stage try on what Hollow Head has done few years ago. Now the engine (not that in pictures) should be ready for the summer and to be installed in Hollow Machine.
By Hollow Head - 18 Years Ago

We'll see how that works...w00t Or how it won't BigGrin

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Glen, Thanks for the offer, Ted got a set for me and hes at driving distance, so I am going to pick up a set from him, I will take lots of pics of the build this time, but it wont be sereval weeks before I can start since I am still at the stage of geathing parts.



Teros- I saw you site a long time ago, thats what inspire me to use the crossover manifold, but I am going to a single turbo method for now and see if its enugh for the 292 daily driving.





Hollow Head - woha that looks like something that came out of a tank. looks cool!
By LON - 18 Years Ago
Hey HoLun,

I sent a RHD ( Right Hand Drive ) Aussie manifold ( drivers side  ) to a guy in Texas who was going to twin turbo a Y block. By using the Aussie  crossover manifold ,it matches the US  drivers side crossover . That way ,you have a pair of stock forward facing manifolds .They would look real trick if you had them HPC coated ??? What sort of HP are you aiming for ? There is a 67 Mustang driving  on the street here in Brisbane with a twin turboed 302 W .It has been dynoed @837 HP and 940 ft lbs of torque .I spoke to the guy who owns the car about doing a Y block .He seems the think 600 to 700HP would be possible .???

Regards Lon

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Lon - really? I didnt know they make the manifold different on other countries, do you by chance have one laying around that you are willing to part with or know anyone that will?



I am not looking to make huge power, maybe just double to stock figures, call me a wuss, but I dont think i can handle anything with 500hp.
By LON - 18 Years Ago
HoLun,

I don't think I have any left ,but I will find you one .The crossover set up  is the same as USA ,but in reverse ? When looking at the motor from the front , it comes from the left side ( our drivers side ) and joins the right side ( passenger side ) If that makes sense ??? I,m sure I can get  you one for free . You can pay the postage . I may take a week or so to find one .Send me a PM with your e-mail.

Lon

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Lon, I dont think the email button or PMs are working for me, I want one of those RHD crossfold manifold, you can reach me at ( HolunW at Gmail dot com)
By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Hmm Instead of worrying about the carb, I am thinking to use the autolite 4100 1.12 that i have laying around, jet it up 5-10 sizes, and use solder to seal up some of the holes that will cause boost leak, and use a fuel injector on the charge pipe for extra fuel under boost, and use a adjustable pressure switch to trigger the injecter, I saw this injector setup on a blow thru carb page, so this might work well and i dont have to worry about ruining a expensive carburetor.





After lookin around for a while, I cant seem to find a rising rate/boost reference regulator that will go from 5psi to about 40 psi, does anyone know of one that will work in that range? with 1:1 boost reference



===



Update on regulator, I purchased a Mallory 4307M regulator for 90 shipped on amazon.com

its 4-25 PSI return style (Does that mean I need to plumb a new line all the way back to the fuel tank?!) with 1:1 boost/vacuum compensation port. i think this should work well



I guess I will use the gas tank vent for return, does anyone know what kind of locking cap thats also vented that will fit these old fuel tanks?
By Hollow Head - 18 Years Ago
Check out the google with "Malpassi fuel regulators" as a keyword. Cheap and usable. I have one for twin carbs.
By LordMrFord - 18 Years Ago
I heard that Malpassi's pressure is not stable.

3 bar might be 4 or 2.5 in next month.



...rumours from injection forums.
By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
OK so far the only thing I have done is modifly my carter afb some to be boost ready by making solid floats and putting in a marine accelerator pump.

and still geathering parts, so far I have purchased 3 turbos, and have already received 2, one of them is a Mitsubish TE04, that thing is way too small for the 292. and the other one is a Garrett T25 with .80 a/r got another exact one coming if 1 t25 is not enugh.

I also have gotten a book on turbocharger and read up on some technical aspect that I didnt know about, and found out how to make vaccum advance work with boost.



also upgraded my wire feed welder to use shielding gas instead of fluxcore, and holy crap, what a big difference it made, I thought my welding skill was bad, turns out it was just my equipment, i'll never use flux core ever again.



and I got to thinking, may be I should use the Holley Projection TBI systems, but i have no idea how that thing work, does it work off of MAP with TPS , or MAF with TPS, or TPS only? how well do they perform under force induction application?



if anyone have experience with these or know where to find info on them with Force induction, please let me know.



also I am wondering if theres a ford TBI type Fuel injection system that have a standalone computer that came from the factory? sort of like the Duraspark conversion, except this is for electronic throttle body fuel injection.


By LordMrFord - 18 Years Ago
I dont know about Holley, but Im running with TBI Megasquirt.

It has everything, what turboengine needs and it can handle the TBI-style injection.

12*12 maps for MAP or TPS based fuel and ignition.

MS is DIY fuel injection, so it needs lot of studying.



Hestek or Haltek is more expensive systems, but more easier.



...and if you want run mechanical injection, some turbofreaks recommends Bosch K-jetronic(or two fourbanger's K-jet for V8) It is quite easy to install and it works without electricity.



Edit:Ferrari F40-style combination of TPS, MAP, RPM is said to be best for turbos.


By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
I got stuck on sourcing correct fittings for my fuel pressure regulator, why the @#%6 they have to use AN fittings? and not including good old barb fittings for the inlet and by pass, the out lets are NPT threads so I am ok there. I cant find any barb fittings that will replace the AN-8 fittings.



I dont want to use AN fittings.
By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
the book name is "Turbochargers" published by HP books and author by Hugh Maclnnes
By GREENBIRD56 - 18 Years Ago
Holun - Try this site, maybe you can find what you need at an industrial fitting supplier....

http://apps.esg.aeroquip.com/productserver/catalog/aeroquipmain.asp?FAM=m_rfa

Take a look at the "low pressure" stuff.....

Is the item you are looking for an adapter to fit a female, straight thread, O-ring port? It may take some looking but just about every kind of junction can be made in the industrial world. I'll try to think of some other sources.....this is the first one I thought of. Most of the industrial flare fittings are 45° - not the 37° of the AN world - but there are many O-ring, pipe and tube fittings around too.

This is another source of just about everything you can imagine.................

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Good luck!

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Yes the stuff I need is the straight thread port that needed the O ring. If i can find something that will adapts the flared side, thats ok too
By GREENBIRD56 - 18 Years Ago
This is a better shot at locating the adapter / connectors than what I gave you before....

When you have a part number, a call your local Aeroquip hose dealer....that should do the trick.

http://www.aeroquip.com/pages/product_overview.html

Hit "catalog" under the "Product overview" heading and lool at the adapter fittings and connectors.

By HoLun - 18 Years Ago
Thanks, i found what i need in the catalog, while searching the net for it, I found that "surplus center" (which I have order stuff form before for a good price) have them under hydrallics, and its reasonable priced

http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2007052910123460&catname=hydraulic&keyword=HFON



link for future refrence if anyone runs into the same problem I have with SAE O-ring/AN fittings