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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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I just finished tearing apart my 292 to rebuild it this winter.One of my problems was slow oil to the right side rocker shaft.John Mummert mentioned that he has found that problem more often in the right side,Anyway,now I can see the problem.I can get a wire down from the top of the block into the centre cam bearing on the left no problem.The right side I cant do it from the top down or bottom up.It looks like more wear on the right side of the bearing or the bearing has turned slightly blocking most of the hole.If you are having a similar problem more with the right side than left this may be whats happened to yours.John Mummert mentioned that he thought it may be more wear on the right side of the bearing due to direction of engine rotation(as I recall).Now to get on with rebuilding it!
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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Mark: According to Doc Fromader writing in the Nov. 2001 Classic Truck series on the Y Block, he says that it often has to do with the way the cam bearings were installed or which style of bearings were used. There were three types of bearings used in Y Blocks apparently. Also cross drilled cams were more likely to develop oiling problems. According to him, if the cam is cross drilled, a slotted oil feed bearing is needed with the slot favoring the right bank. Maybe some of the engine gurus on site will comment further..
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Interesting theory Paul.The one in mine is the newer style for the grooved oil passage(both cam and bearing are grooved) and this motor is original-never overhauled.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Putting a groove in the block in the center cam bearing hole that interconnects all three oil holes is the easy fix. The center cam bearing then simply press fits over this and at this point does not make a difference if the camshaft is the grooved or of the cross drilled variety. This will likely require restrictors to be installed at the rocker arms on each bank as this oiling modification frees up the oil flow to the top.
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Verne Schumann has talked about supplying a cam bearing set where the center cam bearing is grooved around its outer circumference which does essentially the same thing. An externally grooved cam bearing would likely need to be pulled into place rather than driven in though as tapping a grooved bearing into place could potentially cause some crush at the groove and in turn make the clearance at the cam journal too tight.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Hello Ted! Am I OK by just installing new correct grooved bearing as part of my stock rebuild or is this cutting a groove in the block a good idea anyway and how deep should this groove be?By restrictors are you meanining plug the return fitting at the end of the shaft or actually putting a restrictor in the feed hole in the rocker support stand?
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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oldcarmark (11/8/2009)
Hello Ted! I am OK by just installing new correct grooved bearing as part of my stock rebuild or is this cutting a groove in the block a good idea anyway and how deep should this groove be? By restrictors are you meanining plug the return fitting at the end of the shaft or actually putting a restrictor in the feed hole in the rocker support stand?I’m grooving the center cam bearing hole in the block for all Y builds. If the softer cam bearing set is used (usually cost less $), then the grooved camshaft can ultimately cause restricted or no flow to the top end due to the groove in the cam journal being pinched off by the softer bearing material being mashed into it. The addition of the groove in the block behind the cam bearing gets around this. I make the grooves ~.040”-0.055” deep with them being about 1/16” wide.. As far as restricting the oil to the top end, I’m doing it at the pedestal just before the oil enters the rocker shaft. I do still run the overflow tubes but these are partially pinched to allow some oil flow through them to get oil specifically to the timing gear. Leaving them partially open also insures that the rocker shafts are purged of air and full of oil which reduces the tendency for sludging in the shafts by keeping the oil moving at a faster rate. The distributor gear appears to get enough lubricant regardless if the rocker arm overflow tubes are eliminated or not. When eliminating the overflow tubes, there are those who have drilled a small oil hole in the front of the block under the cam thrust plate to provide additional oil to the timing set. That looks to be a viable option also. . Here’s a past thread giving more detail on timing gear oiling mods.
Pressurized timing chain oiling . And here’s a variety ofpast threads on oil modifications in general. Center cam bearing Pressurized rocker shafts Pressurized rocker shaft more Rocker arm overflow tubes Cons Rocker arm overflow tubes Pros Rocker arm overflow tube More Pros Timing chain oil trough Adding lifter valley holes for camshaft oiling Drilling additional holes for oiling and/or venting Valley holes for aiding crankcase evacutation
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By Jeffs54Merc - 16 Years Ago
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What about the Y-Block oiling system that fed oil through the valve cover studs. I have two of these kits just in case I ever need to install them. I found them on ebay for under $20.00.
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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Mummert hasn't commented here, but in his YBM comments has stated that many replacement Cams also have need of a deeper oil feed groove. His current stock have the groove machined deeper. However, I don't have the specs at hand, so it needs to be checked into...
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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My understanding is that they work if there is no other way to fix the problem BUT they can reduce the amount of oil going to other areas like the mains.
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By Rono - 16 Years Ago
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Check to make sure that the rocker shaft isn't upside down. This can easily happen during a rebuild (I did it myself once) The center hole in the rocker shaft has to align with the one in the center rocker stand. Rono.
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By Rono - 16 Years Ago
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Ted; I'm in the process of building a stroked and blown 292 and just received Schumann's most recent price list and news letter. The new center cam bearings with the grove on the O.D. are now available and I was about to purchase it. I can't envision how you would pull that center cam bearing into place rather than driving ? could you explain that to me so I cold pass it along to the shop? Thanks, Rono.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Rono (11/12/2009)
Ted...The new center cam bearings with the grove on the O.D. are now available and I was about to purchase it. I can't envision how you would pull that center cam bearing into place rather than driving ? could you explain that to me so I cold pass it along to the shop? The simplest method is use some ½” all thread instead of the driving bar. With the all thread material inserted through the bearing ‘puck’ and with the bearing installed on it and placed securely up against the hole in which the bearing is going to be installed, the all thread goes to the end of the block where a flat piece of stock is held in place with another nut. Simply tighten on this nut at the back (or front) of the block and the cam bearing will pull into the hole. The bearings are more easily pulled in from the fronts of the holes as many of the Y blocks have the holes chamfered only on the front edge of the holes. Cam bearings can be pulled in from the back sides of the cam bearing holes more easily if the edge is chamfered or ‘broken’ with a file. If this isn’t clear, just give a holler and I’ll make another attempt.
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By aussiebill - 16 Years Ago
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! ,Rono, ted has explained it exactly, this is picture of tool i made 40 years ago and is easy to use as ted pointed out. If not sure, it may be more prudent to get machine shop to fit them. TIP! mark tool with marker pen inline with cam bearing slots so as to install them correctly. best regards bill.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 16 Years Ago
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Roger: With the heads off and the cam out, you can put a trouble light in the center cam bearing and look down the feed holes to the top of the block. You should see the slots in the cam bearing. Or, you could blow through the holes with an air hose and see if air comes out of the cam bearing slots. I'm guessing the cam bearing is not installed correctly.
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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Does 45psi at cranking speed seem high to anyone else?
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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If your guy has it partially apart with the rocker shaft assemby off spinning the motor with no plugs should get oil flowing out of the oil feed hole in the head.You should see oil.If no oil my bet is the bearing is incorrectly installed OR was too tight on the cam and got turned'.Did you ever have oil to the rockers initiatley after installing it? The engine rebuild guy should remove the cam and check it out.ALL oil flow to the rockers comes from the centre cam bearingIf there is by chance oil flow with the rockers off the rocker shaft was assembled with shaft upside down.When that motor was assembled oil flow could have been tested by removing the distributor and turning the oil pump shaft with a drill to prime the motor and check for proper oil flow to the top of the heads.Too late now but hope this helps.
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By awhtx - 16 Years Ago
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Roger56 (11/13/2009)
I had 45+ pounds pressure after a few seconds, but after ing the engine non stop for a minute and a half I had no oil at all.I just went through basically the same thing. With the rocker assemblies and the spark plugs removed I did not get any oil up to the heads by turning the engine over with the starter. I removed the distributor and used an electric drill and a 1/4" deep socket to turn the oil pump and oil came up to the heads. Apparently the starter does not turn the engine over fast enough for the oil to reach the heads.
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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It certainly sounds like your rebuilder made a mistake installing the Cam bearings. I'd say he owes you some rebuilt Rockers by now.
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By awhtx - 16 Years Ago
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Roger56 (11/13/2009)
Using a drill how fast did you spinn the drill.Black & Decker 1/2" Variable Speed turning as fast as it would go.
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By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
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I don't think this has been mentioned? The Drill needs to be in reverse does it not?
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Yes Paul.Its counter clockwise.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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I’ll add this about cam bearing installation on stock engines. If the groove on the center journal of the camshaft does not align with the holes in the bearings, then oil will also not pump up to the rockers regardless if the holes in the bearings are aligned with the holes in the block. The center bearing being installed not quite on center (offset slightly) and the groove in the cam journal being biased in the opposite direction is all it takes for oil not to be transferred to the topend. During engine assemblies, I’ve been able to look down the oil hole in the decks and see the groove with the camshaft properly installed. If the cam journal groove cannot be seen at this point, then this is an opportune time to correct that particular problem. I’ll also add that there are some replacement cam bearings out there that are extremely soft and with any kind of valve spring pressure allows the groove in the camshaft to deform the bearing enough that the oil flow is effectively blocked. Bearing material is pushed into the groove of the cam blocking the oil flow. Grooving the block behind the center cam bearing has been the sure fix for all these kinds of issues. The only problem this has created is the need for an oiling restrictor prior to the oil getting to the shafts as there’s way too much oil to the top end with this mod. Too much oil is obviously easier to deal with than not enough or none.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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You may be able to use the shafts as is ONCE you get the oil problem fixed up.Mine are slightly scored from running dry and I just cleaned the burrs off with fine crocus cloth.If the inside bushing of the arms are OK you should be able to reuse them.Bushings are not available as far as I know.If the arm is no good replace it with a new one(expensive) or a good used one.Shafts are available from Macsantiqueauto.com or Tee-Bird.com just to name 2.Many of us are using 15w40 or 20w50.I am using Shell Rotella 15w40 which Walmart for one sells.Other members have their own preferences.Modern 10w30 is not the best choice.Lacks certain additives which are in the "diesel" rated oils like Rotella.Hope you get your "lack of oil" problem fixed up.Pretty frustrating to spend money for a rebuild and still end up with a problem!
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By marvh - 16 Years Ago
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I would have the rebuilder measure the groove in the camshaft as it likely is to shallow. Many of the after market camshafts have about .017" depth. I have seen some cams as shallow as .013" depth about 5+ years ago. The factory originals I have measured were ~.021" deep and as we know they did not oil the top end very well. The easiest way to measure groove depth is to measure the journal, (I just use a vernier) then measure in the groove, subtract from each other then divide by 2 for the depth of groove.
Let us know what the depth is.
Whenever I do an engine I have the machine shop cut the groove in the new cam the same width as it was but deepen the groove to .032" this has given lots of oil to the rockers and still have 50 lbs oil pressure at idle and 75 PSI cruising. I use Clevite cam bushings as I have found the clearances tighter than many other brands.
Teds method of grooving inside the block would also work. Myself,I just have cut the grooves deeper for many years and works also.
marv
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Just a thought.Has the end play on the cam been checked?Possibly with too much end play the cam is shifting forward and putting the groove in the cam out of the groove in the bearing.Just an idea.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Hello Roger! I would not put it back together until you figure out the problem.No reason this should not work properly on a rebuilt motor.Something is not right in that middle cam bearing or the camshaft.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Roger56 (11/15/2009)
I had discussed putting in new cam bearings. Any suggestions what brand ...... Was your oil pressure gauge checked against another to insure it was not reading higher than actual? There are a rash of gauges out there that are reading twice or more too high. Low oil pressure simply compounds any issues regarding getting oil to the top end. Which oil pump design are you using? Spur gear design or Gerotor design? I have good results using the premium Durabond cam bearing sets.
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By Rono - 16 Years Ago
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Thanks Ted...I get it now! I'm sure I will be talking to you again now that I've found this site and have started building this stroked and blown motor. I do want to try out this grooved cam bearing from Schummans. Rono
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By John Mummert - 16 Years Ago
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The EDB-E block is 1958-mid 59. D-17 doesn't mean anything now. It is just the number of the pattern used to make that portion of the head. They were making a million Y-Block heads a year and needed more than 1 set of patterns. Don't under estimate how important the depth of the groove in the cam is. If it is too shallow you won't get oil to both sides even if everything else is perfect.
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By marvh - 16 Years Ago
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Roger56
Did you get a chance to measure the groove depth.
marv
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By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
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That's probably the problem. It looks like .032 to .055 deep has worked for others. Widen it some, too. .010 is real small. 1/16" is .0625.
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By marvh - 16 Years Ago
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(Quote) My builder tore the engine completly down and showed me that everything was in place correctly. He is going to take out the clevite bearings and put in another set of clevite. I took my cam down the street to a roll die shop to see if he could help me on measuring the cam groove. Turns out he is building his own hotrod, so he was sympathetic to my situation. He measured the depth with a depth guage and also electronically. The groove measured 0.0017. I took it back to the builder and we tried to measure the width of the groove in the new cam because it is wider than the cam that came out of the old engine. The old cam groove width is about 0.0065, and the groove in the new cam is about 0.0100 a difference of about 0.0035 in width. Do you still recommend grooving it out to 0.0032. John at the roll die asked if the cam was soft so he could cut it or is it hardened and needed to be ground
Roger 56
I think you have typed the decimal place incorrect as .0017 is 1.7thou which is very small.
I have always cut the groove to .032" ( 32 thousand) deep and leave the width as manufactured (usually is .100") and have had excellent top oiling. I purposely don't widen the groove as I do not want to reduce the load bearing surface on the cam bearing. I measured an original Ford cam and got a groove width of .065" and the a replacement cam has a width of .100". The camshafts are cast so cut easily with a lathe. This is funny yet not so funny. Tell the machinist to make sure the tool bit is clear before engaging headstock as I have a new Isky RPM 300 with a nick on the first lobe from that mistake. We started doing this to the camshafts when rebuilding Y blocks when I worked for Lincoln Mercury in the early 60's to correct the top oiling problems.
One engine I rebuilt had a PCV setup that would suck oil into the manifold. The early 221 Windsors (62 Meteor/Fairlanes) have a road-draft tube with a pot cleaner type of filter at the engine. I installed one of these filters in in the Y block PCV valley cover and it stopped the oil sucking problem. I do not crimp the overflow tubes or if I do it is very slightly as (my opinion) is if you install heavier valve springs and performance oil pump you had better have adequate oil to the timing chain and distributor gear or it will run hot in a hurry. I use a Rollmaster chain and a pump from Precision Oil Pumps with HD drive shaft.
Ted's method of grooving the bearing would definitely work. I don't know method of how the groove is cut inside the block.
marv
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Hello Roger! Glad to hear you have figured out the problem(sounds like it).As far as the heat tube for the choke-the service replacement from Ford was a kit that screws the hot air line for the choke into the exhaust manifold.Same idea as you would see on a lot of Ford cars in the 60'S.Thats what was on mine when I got it and I found out by looking in my Ford parts book that it is a replacement for the tubes through the manifold.You may find a kit on Epay as I have seen them from time to time.If I run across one shortly I will post it for you.Good luck on your motor.I will be looking at my cam before I install it on my rebuild project. Roger! There is a kit on Epay if you are interested.Item # 170411578489.If your tubes through the manifold are rusted simply plug them.
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By Ted - 16 Years Ago
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Roger56 (11/28/2009)
Another problem I have is the heat tube going into the holley carb filled the choke chamber with carbon that seized the choke piston. I cleaned it out and have it working again. My question is can I get enough heat to the choke if I pinch off the end of the tube to keep exhaust gasses out?I'll say no on this one. The choke assembly requires a constant stream of air for it to work properly. It’s that air stream that pulls the heat into the choke heat coil chamber and without it, the choke will work lazy if it works at all. You can call that stream of air an engineered vacuum leak. An option is an electric choke coil so you don't have to rely on the heat being generated on the outside of the tube in the intake manifold exhaust crossover passage.
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By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
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Hello Roger! Are you still with us?How did things work out on your motor?Never heard anymore back from you.
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