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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Finally, a nice, warm day in Atlanta! I used it to tie up some loose ends on projects from last year, and investigate a noisy something under the valve cover that has developed in the pas few weeks.
Now I have a adjuster screw wearing on #6 intake, which is the rocker on the left!
 
All three of my valvetrain related problems has been on the driver side head. Chuck is to blame for one of them . Oh well. I wish the new stuff would stop breaking so I can focus more time on other areas.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie - What relationship does this adjuster have to the earlier pushrod cup problems? Same position or another?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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No relation I can tell other than having all occur on the same head. The first failure was #5 exhaust. The second was #8 exhaust. This one is #6 intake.
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By Nathan Soukup - 15 Years Ago
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I had the same problem with my roller rockers.It seems like my rockers werent getting any oil.I ended up putting the roller rockers on the shelf and switched back to ECG rockers.Any body know why?I think the oil holes dont line up with the oil holes on the shaft?I remember an article in YBM that talked about modifying the shafts?,cant find the article.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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They're getting oil. I made sure of that after the first failure.
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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Nathan, ted showed that grinding angled slot on rocker shafts helped with oil flow to rockers. i had same problem as you and charlie and took them off also. best regards bill.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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nathan soukup (2/22/2010)
I think the oil holes don't line up with the oil holes on the shaft? I remember an article in YBM that talked about modifying the shafts? Cant find the article.Here’s a link to a thread with a picture showing the rocker shaft mod. This angled cut helps to align the groove in the rockers with the oil feed hole in the shaft.http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic10464-3-1.aspx
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie - Try to find find a machine shop that has a little "PTC Instruments" hardness tester - makes a punch mark and measures the scar diameter. Check a "good" adjuster" against a failed one on the hex flat - maybe you'll find them soft. If so use the tester to sort out the replacements - assuming you can get some... Without a PTC set-up handy - I've used a Browning spring loaded punch, a magnifier, and a small dial caliper. This looks more like a hardness problem than a lubrication issue to me. Lube failures often result in "scoring" - your parts look polished.
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By Nathan Soukup - 15 Years Ago
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Thanx for the link.I remember reading about this problem,I even did the shaft mod just like in the article in YBM,but still had some oiling issues with the Dove set up.Thanx Ted for the articles and work on the Y.I ended up giving up on the roller rockers,from now on Ill stick to the stock style rockers.Is John still offering the Blue Thunder rockers?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie - I had a 223 "six" rocker arm in my junk here at work - the Ford adjuster screw checks over 50 Rc (with the PTC). The aftermarket arms ought to match that.........
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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That's a good thought and it will make me feel better if they are soft because then the error could not be on my part. The thing I don't understand, if it is soft, is why it would have lasted about 5000 miles without showing any signs of premature wear and then, suddenly, failing. All of my lash checks have been good. That's what happened with the one push rod. I had it for about 10000 miles in the previous engine with no problems and presently, 15 of that set of push rods are running in the engine with no problems.
The screw is polished. That push rod and rocker are just as wet with oil as the others.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Maybe just the ball tip is hardened on those particular adjuster screws - and when you go through the skin - she melts away. If that's the case -the surface hardening may be of a reduced depth on the failed parts.....????
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By speedpro56 - 15 Years Ago
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Some early doves I bought from gord in Canada did not oil correctly and scorched several pushrod cups. I then ordered a new set from Dove, sent them to rocker arm specialty and they installed bronze bushing, grooved an oil passage and they worked fine. I now get my rocker arms from Rocker Arm Specialty and they come set up with the bronze bushing already grooved and ready to go. No other problems except I had one rocker adjustment screw ball end break off which was no fun because it led to a valve spring break in Columbus and took me out of the race.
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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GREENBIRD56 (2/23/2010)
Maybe just the ball tip is hardened on those particular adjuster screws - and when you go through the skin - she melts away. If that's the case -the surface hardening may be of a reduced depth on the failed parts.....????Steve, i feel the same way, mine are early Dove and had several melted ball tips and poor oiling characteristics, i believe Teds grooved oil slots on shaft help. I might look into rocker arm specialitys rockers.
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By Ol'ford nut - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie- Did you ever figure out what caused your pushrod to mushroom out?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Nope. I don't know why any of it happened. Since I haven't had a repeat of any one of them, I suspect it's defective components or a defective person.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I replaced the screw this past Sunday. And today, I checked the adjustment during lunch. Sure enough, something is wearing. Hopefully it's the push rod and not the new screw.
I visually inspected the rocker assembly when I replaced the screw and everything looked alright as far as oiling goes. This is great. Both vehicles having trouble and I have to drive the one least broken!
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By John Mummert - 15 Years Ago
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The best rocker adjusters I've found are the original Ford jamb nut type. They're harder than glass. I have used them when all else failed. I agree with Steve, it looks like a hardness or heat treat problem. A lot of Chinese parts are surface hard but not thru hardened. That is the problem with Chinese lifters. They Rockwell perfect but it is just a thin candy shell. The substrate is so soft it can't support the hardened layer and deforms under load. Then the hard layer starts to flake off. I have bags full of defective import rocker adjusting screws that wear just like yours. Some go bad in 50 miles. I have found noticable wear during cam break in alone. These import adjsters Rockwell harder than the self locking Ford adjusters but don't last.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I sure hope Dove rocker arms and components aren't made in China. They're too expensive for that.
Up until now, I've only had push rod problems. This is my 1st screw to go bad.
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By pegleg - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie. Take one of the defective adjusters to a local steel heat tret shop and ask them to look at it. If John's (and Alan) right the material will not be any good either. Case hardening or a "Salt Bath" hardening may be all it's capable of. If that's the case you'll need to replace or better yet get Dove to replace them ALL.
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By Fordy Guy - 15 Years Ago
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Charley and Gang, When I assembled my heads after getting them back from JM,I had a set of the original Dove roller rockers that were not offset like the new ones are now.I talked to Rocker Arm Specialists about this problem and ended up sending my rockers to them and having the same thing done that Gary did and had the "banana grooves" cut in my shafts and roller rockers. I had Jerry Christenson make me aluminum spacers to replace the springs and that all has been over 4 years ago and everything is still as perfect as when it was new. I recently adjusted my valve train and gave it a good inspection and see no wear on my pushrods or adjusters. Maybe you just got a bad batch that wasn't hardened to specs. You should take it up with Dove, as I don't think Jim would want any bad press on his rockers.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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IMHO Roller rockers were designed for strip use and not daily drivers. First of all the only benifits are that a roller gives an infinite number of contact points verses the same contact point on a stock arm, and they may be lighter but how much benifit will you get out of that on the street? (how many miles did the stock arms go before wearing out?) The down side, Chancing inferior hardened adjusting screws, rollers or roller shafts. More moving components to fail and wear out. as the rollers and shafts wear there are more clearance issues to deal with. Hydraulic rollers never leave the surface so there is no pounding, Solids however have clearance, this is hammering on a screw in aluminum threads! can the the threads handle the thousands of hammerings per minute X the thousands of miles driven on a street engine? Down the drag strip for a weekend and then check everything out and replace as needed OK, but for a daily dependable driver, not in my engine, The stock have proven themselves many times over.
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By PWH42 - 15 Years Ago
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Billy,I agree completely.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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There are a few other benefits to higher ratio roller rockers. There is less side loading of the valve and the increased ratio provides and increase in lift and duration at the valve. A possible negative effect, due to the ratio, is that the pushrod, lifter, and cam see a little more pressure.
I know there are others who run these on street vehicles but I do not know how those vehicles are really used. I can't technically call my truck a daily driver since I have 2 vehicles and I try to use them about equally so 50/50 is probably pretty accurate. If I can't track the problem down, then I may very well switch back to the stock rockers. However, if it is a problem with the rockers, I'm baffled as to why it happens only on the driver side head.
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By speedpro56 - 15 Years Ago
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The benefits I've gotten from my 1.6 roller rockers is a tighter lash with less noise, better fuel economy 24mpg versus 21mpg and the upper end keeps pulling stronger as the rpms increase ( seat of the pants feel ) and yes it will pull the wheels off the ground taking off and it is my daily driver 56 tbird that I will not drive in the snow or take out if it's raining. The original 1.54s were good and I still have them in case my rollers went bad but after over 100,000 miles and many years of use I really can't complain but I am using the ones from rocker arm speciality. The early doves did give me some problems in the oiling dept. I don't know if they were monkeyed with before I got them or not, they came from a canada dealer. Jerry Christersan told me about gary at rocker arm specialty and he's very good to work with and can do about anything you want. The lash I'm running is .015 and with the beehive springs I can keep the spring pressure down to approx 105 lbs on hte seat and 260 over the nose which is more than enough to push over 6000 rpms. I am speaking only of my experience with roller rockers.
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By speedpro56 - 15 Years Ago
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I can't I misspelled believe Christenson. That's what I get trying to beat the clock and not get kicked out on my thread before it's finished.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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1.6 - 1.54 = 060" which is a significant amount at the valve. however (Charlie) any lift over .500 at the valve and the guides need to be machined down, you are not bottoming out are you? That would have a serious impact on the ball.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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Just another thought, Maybe the valve seats sit higher up on that side head and you are bottoming out. the other side head the seats may be cut slightly deeper so you are not bottoming that side?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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That is something worth checking. I wouldn't suspect that sort of problem because my heads were done by a very reputable person. If I was bottoming out, I expect I would have found much more evidence, sooner, and perhaps repeated problems with the same pushrod but that has not been the case. But you know what they say about assuming.
I have a pretty mild cam. It's .457" at the valve. So I shouldn't be having interference problems.
Man, it looks like it's going to rain again.
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By PF Arcand - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie: I don't know, but Mummert's Cam Ads indicate that lift of .450" is the limit for stock length guides. So you could be having some interference.. Worth a check.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (3/24/2010)
I replaced the screw this past Sunday. And today, I checked the adjustment during lunch. Sure enough, something is wearing. Hopefully it's the push rod and not the new screw.Charlie. The Dove rockers are not made in China for what that’s worth in this day and age. From your decription this problem exists on the same rocker that you just replaced the stud on or is it another rocker? The replacement studs I sent to you are supposedly produced from the correct material and I have them on hand specifically for when questions about stud quality come up. There was a bad batch of studs made from mismarked material awhile back and these new studs are on hand to correct those problems. Your rockers do predate that time period when those defective rocker studs hit the market place though. I’ll be curious as to what you find as you delve deeper into this new wear issue.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Ted (3/30/2010)
From your description this problem exists on the same rocker that you just replaced the stud on or is it another rocker?
It's the same rocker.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks Charlie. What kind of clearance did it open up to?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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A lot! I didn't check, but it was probably between 1/16" to 1/8" after 3 days.
Come to think of it, the original stuff does seem to be much better than this aftermarket stuff, replacement push rods included, even if it is made in the USA. I remember when I first got the truck, neither of the shafts were oiling. It had self locking adjusters that were no longer self locking. So I oiled and adjusted the shafts weekly. It had a combination of tubular and solid push rods. I never had anything break or wear, even with no oil getting there while running. It seems it is true, that they don't make things like they use to. Of course, the springs were stock, lift was lower, so it may not be a fair assertion.
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By John Mummert - 15 Years Ago
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Charley, metallurgy and heat treat are everything. We found on cam and lifter break-in that if the cam and lifters are made of the correct material and heat treated properly you can get away with many other problems. The crown on the lifter, lobe rake and oil don't need to be perfect. If the metallurgy or heat treat is incorrect, nothing is going to make it live. All the oil additives, reduced spring pressure, 20 minute break-in at exactly 2000 rpm ect ect are a waste of time. Having said that, correct lobe rake and lifter crown will make it last longer than incorrectly made parts. The reason I mention this is another possible problem might be the shape of the adjuster ball itself. Perhaps they are not a true 3/16" radius. This would cause additional load in small areas while other areas of the ball would not make contact. The other possible cause is that some materials although strong, have poor scrubbing properties. They might just be made of the wrong material.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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As John mentions, the shapes may not be correct between ball and pushrod socket. As mentioned in another post, I lapped a set together once sitting in a chair on a beach. I am not saying to do that these days, but you could take and use some fine lapping compound and match each rocker and rod. It does sound like hardening issues though.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I found that the passage from the shaft to the pushrod cup became blocked. Hopefully that caused the original failure. I found no other blockages and the rocker arm looks fine. It seemed to be oiling normally on the shaft and at the roller tip. I'll check the lash in a few days and see if the problem is solved.
How would it relatively suddenly become blocked?
I also eyeballed my valve clearance. It looks like I could go another .050 to .100 on lift if I wanted to. No interference issues there.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I checked the clearance yesterday and it was good.
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By Bob's 55 - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie, hope you found your problem, I'm running the same rockers and have never had an issue but you had me concerned...
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Just stay tuned. I'm not convinced it was the problem. The first time I took it apart, it was definitely getting oil and I had noticed the noise for a couple weeks but didn't have time to check it out. This last time, the cup was dry. So I'm thinking the crud of a wearing component blocked the hole and compounded the issue. The hole oiling the cup is not pressurized so if crud gets in there, it can build up easily until it stops flow completely.
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