By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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From the Testing ECZ-B vs Mummert 4V intakes – Round One
thread.
Y block Billy (3/6/2010) Ted/John,
In the exhaust issue department, What are the best diameters for headers and exhaust systems for a healthy street car?
should primary's be 1 5/8", 1 3/4" and what size collector? should the rest of the system be 2" 2.5" or larger?
I wanted to start making my own set of headers is why I am asking this.
This is a question I too am interested in because I plan on building some headers soon. In addition to the questions above, I have one about stepped headers. Is there a certain length that tends to work well before stepping up the header to the next size?
Is it better to match the shape of the ports? Leave the tubes round at the port? Perhaps the same shape, only slightly larger?
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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Complex things... Here is some theory:No matter how much additional air is forced into the engine, no additional HP will be made unless additional fuel is also added. The energy that makes HP in an engine comes from the combustion of the fuel, not only the air. In general, every two HP produced requires one pound of fuel per hour. When modifications are performed that increase airflow into the engine, more air is available for the combustion of fuel. The combustion of the additional fuel is what translates into additional HP. Air flow is not just influenced by the size (area) of the paths it takes into and out of the engine. It is also influenced by the speed at which it moves. Specific Port Flow (cubic meter/sec) = Flow Velocity (m/s) x Average Path Area (m2) Whenever an engine modification increases the average area of the airflow paths into and out of an engine, there is a chance the velocity of the flow will decrease. Most of the time the factor of velocity decrease is very small compared to the area increased, so flow is generally increased. If modifications are taken too far, the velocity will decrease more than the area increases, so flow is adversely affected (example - four inch exhaust system on a 1.6 liter engine). - A "shortie" or a "block hugger" flows better than a stock manifold, and helps to produce more power than stock. However, it is not technically considered a header. They are easier to install in a stock style exhaust system, which makes them attractive.
- Bigger diameter primary tubes are NOT better in most street applications.
- The torque/power boost available from a header will occur at a specific RPM that can be easily determined. The price paid for this boost is likely lower power at other RPMs. All engine design is compromise.
- Equal primary tube length is very important for tuning and power output, but not to the point of obsessing over it. A regular Tri Y or 4-1 header will work wonders over the stock manifolds.
- A long and smooth collector is a good thing.
- Just like header tube size, be reasonable with the size of your exhaust system.
Those "facts" are browsed from internet, not my head. http://www.fabshopheaders.com/header-facts.html The more you read, the more you get new ideas...
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By Bob's 55 - 15 Years Ago
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That is too heavy so early in the morning. I think you just gave me a headache...
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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Ok, let's make things easy to do Download this and have some more fun...http://www.otter-ag.ee/files/Header%20design.pdf That doesn't really answer the question about sizes but it is otherwise interesting to read... I like the trial and error method more friendly for my wallet... This one has more graphs and runner lengths calculated by rpm range http://tom.marshall.tripod.com/exhaust.html And this Merge Collector thing interests me more and more. http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/02-11_Merge_Collectors.pdf And this is easy to read. Understanding is another dilemma... http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0310phr_jack_burns_exhaust_manifold_header_tech/index.html
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By rmk57 - 15 Years Ago
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I built headers for my 57 Custom using 1.5 tubing, there a shorty style all tubes exiting around and above the cross member. Problem with long tubes is ground clearance with the front tubes going underneath the control arm and the collector exiting right into the cross member. I read a header test article with a 400 hp 383 sbc and they used 1.5 to 1.75 tubes and the smaller tubes generally out performed in torque and horsepower on a street driven car.
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By ecode ragtop - 15 Years Ago
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DOES ANY ONE MAKE A GOOD HEADER TO FIT A 57 PASSENGER CAR?
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By Glen Henderson - 15 Years Ago
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Tom, I don't think anyone builds a "good" header for the 57. Ted's carb test proves that the Reds are only slightly better than stock. The good headers that Ted is using are modified scrubs by JC and RB, but they want fit in a 57 frame. Good headers will have too be custom made. It's time for someone to step up and offer a "GOOD" set for the 57 y block.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Glen Henderson (3/7/2010) It's time for someone to step up and offer a "GOOD" set for the 57 y block.
And trucks!
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By Unibodyguy - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks Hollow Head for all the tech you posted. I"d like to build some headers also at some point for my trucks. I built a few for a 223 and it sure woke that thing up even with the stock 1bll. carb on it.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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When the heads and intake manifold dyno testing is concluded, an extensive exhaust system test is planned. At this point I have the following exhaust systems on hand in which to test. EMC four tube stepped headers with 3½” X 10” collectors w & w/o mufflers EMC four tube stepped headers with 3½” X 28” collectors w & w/o mufflers Fenderwell 1 5/8” four tube headers with 3” collectors Fenderwell 1¾” four tube headers with 4” collectors Pickup Tri-Y 1 5/8” headers with 2½” collector opening. Lead pipes being considered. Thunderbird short tube Tri-Y 1¾” headers with 2½” collector opening. Lead pipes being considered. Reds/Hedman short tube headers with 4” long 2” diameter lead pipes Rams horn exhaust manifolds with 4’ long 2½” diameter lead pipes w & w/o mufflers Stock 1957 exhaust manifolds with 4’ long 2” diameter lead pipes Four tube 1¾” headers with 3” collectors w& w/o mufflers (built for dyno testing) Four tube 1¾” headers with 3” collectors (custom for a ’56 Ford racecar) This looks to be a minimum of fifteen different test variables and likely at least 30 dyno pulls on the engine as each variable is normally tested twice. The EMC headers have a 3½” collector but the collectors are now double walled with a 2½” smaller collector inside the larger one which helped the EMC engine. That same header is currently being used on the 312 dyno mule without any changes from when it was used in the EMC competition. I’m currently building some new 1 ¾” tube headers for the Y dyno engine with 3” collectors and without the stepped tubes as are currently being run. There’s also another set of 1¾” tube headers of a slightly different design available that were just built for a ’56 Ford drag car that’s currently going together. It must be remembered that dyno testing is WOT testing and smaller sized headers are not necessarily bad at low rpms and at a cracked open throttle operation. It’s only when the engine is at full throttle that a larger volume of ingested fuel air mixture must be purged from the engine and that’s where sizing becomes critical as scavenging becomes a major player. As a general rule, being too large on header tube size is not as detrimental to overall engine performance as being too small.
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By BIGREDTODD - 15 Years Ago
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Here are the headers that will I'm cleaning up and putting back on my Bird. I'll be interested to see how the test comes out (though it won't change what I put on the car). Bob Hedman made these for this car after Vic Sr. finished the engine. They're slightly different (flanges) than the T-bird headers the Hedman started to produce shortly thereafter. They're very similar to the ones that you can buy at Red's Headers, but these have 1 3/4" primary as opposed to 1 5/8"...neither version has a typical header collector. It's a slip joint/clamped connection. I've been told that this design doesn't flow as well as the full-length Bird headers available ($$$$) but they are better than the Sanderson headers for the T-bird with straight exit from the engine and smooth transitions...though they do make plug changes even more of a nightmare... The driver's side still installed before tear down:  
And here's the passenger side, removed from the car:  
Here are the Red's Headers version: 
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Say, does anyone have some 1 1/2" primary tube truck headers to send Ted's way?
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By rmk57 - 15 Years Ago
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This is what I built a few weeks ago. There made for a 57 model car. There 1.5" tube, bolt access, spark plug is very good. I had to shorten the collector a couple inches to run the exhaust above the cross member. The only tight spot is around the steering box,maybe 1/2 inch clearance. 

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By miker - 15 Years Ago
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I'll be watching this with a lot of interest, also. When I had the 'bird on the chassis dyno in '04, to set the jetting and timing, the engine hit the wall about 4800rpm. The dyno guy, who has enough experience to make a good guess looked at the 1 1/2 tailpipes and said "there's enough back pressure in there to run a turbine". It didn't like the 4 tubes J Mummert used to sell (still does?) would clear the R&P steering I'm using, so I never did anything about it. Recent post make it sound like they might, and the comments of late on the Red's headers lead me to believe just the tailpipes won't help. If you get some info, maybe I can re-do the exhaust and headers and see what it changes on a street motor in the car.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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When I was racing my F engined Bird in pure stock, I started with stock manifolds and the stock 1 3/4 tailpipes. When I upgraded to 2 1/4 tailpipes, allowed by the rules, and retaining the original 2" headpipes, I picked up about .4 seconds and about 5 mph in the 1/4 mile. Your dyno guy knows of which he speaks.
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By unibodyboy - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie,
I am quite happy with my Red's headers. While they aren't tuned length, they look to have very little restriction as well as fit my lowered pickup.
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By glrbird - 15 Years Ago
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Here is the item number for a set of fenderwell headers on ebay if any of you 57 ford owners are looking 320497055363 just over a day left
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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I forgot to mention in my previous post about tail pipes, I replaced the mufflers with 2" in and out turbo style mufflers.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 15 Years Ago
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After looking and reading and scratching my head... I ordered a set from Sanderson for my 57 Tbird. Not going to the dragstrip but want a better breathing motor and a good sound. Probably go with 2 1/4 exhaust and mufflers out the back tucked up under and turned down a little at the bumper. I have a set on my 65 Galaxie 352 with Flowmasters the same way. Sounds great.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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unibodyboy (3/8/2010) Charlie,
I am quite happy with my Red's headers. While they aren't tuned length, they look to have very little restriction as well as fit my lowered pickup.
Those are what I'm using. I suspect that the 1 1/2", non mandrel bent primaries leave something to be desired for performance. That's why I'd like for Ted to have a set (or some similar) to test. I had 2 options for manifolds/headers to send to Ted. I sent one. If I send the headers, then I will not be able to drive the truck until testing is finished and for my daily driver, that does not fly. I think all of the options out there for trucks leave something to be desired.
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By 57FordPU - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie, I have an extra set of Sanderson 1 1/2" plain steel headers. If they are what you are looking for, I would be happy to send them to Ted. These are the same kind I use on the race truck except we use ceramic coating. I doubt if these would work well on larger cu. in. engines, but the little 258" Y doesn't seem to mind. Jerry C has been trying to get me to change them for some time with no success (he especially hates the collectors), (what collectors? ). 

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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie,
I think those will be perfect. The design is very similar.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie. If you can send the 1½” tube headers, I’ll include them on the test. Looks like testing both open and with headpipes would be the plan for those particular headers. 2½” headpipes would be the choice at this point.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Here’s a picture of the two tube Reds/Hedman headers that were initially being used on the 312 dyno engine. These were being used with 4 foot long 2” diameter lead pipes with no mufflers.
And here’s a picture of the headers that were worth an additional 22 horsepower with mufflers in place over the ones pictured above.
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By MoonShadow - 15 Years Ago
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Ted, Did you try a set of Jerry's rear dump headers? I'd like to know how they do on a Dyno. Chuck in NH
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By 62galxe - 15 Years Ago
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This is the short truck headers from Reds headers. 1 1/2" tubes with crimped bends. My truck is gonna be a cruiser so these should be fine. Did not like the stock manifolds and did not have the money for ramshorn manifolds. 

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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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So, Kenny, you going to be using them any time soon? You're pretty close to Ted, right? Make it a day trip, throw some headers on the dyno, and be home soon after dark.
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By 62galxe - 15 Years Ago
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It could be possible. I have a trip to Dallas on the 16th returning on the18th.
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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62galxe (3/13/2010)
This is the short truck headers from Reds headers. 1 1/2" tubes with crimped bends. My truck is gonna be a cruiser so these should be fine. Did not like the stock manifolds and did not have the money for ramshorn manifolds. 

I am curious what the price difference would have been between john,s rams horn headers and these? Thanks.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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A little more than $100.00.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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Ted, On the rams horns, are you testing originals or John's, or is there any difference? I am sure John must have some info for this question.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Chuck. I have had a set of Jerry’s rear dump headers on the dyno and they are middle of the road between a set of Hedmans that were tested and a set of fenderwells off of an old circle track engine. These were not tested on the dyno mule but instead on a reasonably hopped up and built Y. The plan is to eventually test all the exhaust systems that are available here on the same engine under the same conditions to help determine exactly what header designs are best suited for the particular engine combination being tested. I bring that up as a dead stock engine will not respond the same to exhaust tuning as a highly modified engine.
Y block Billy (3/13/2010) Ted, On the rams horns, are you testing originals or John's, or is there any difference? The Rams horn manifolds I have here are the originals and are a set that Charlie sent to me for testing. I’m currently having 2½” lead pipes mated to them for testing.
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By 62galxe - 15 Years Ago
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Ted if you want to test my short reds truck headers let me know. I have a couple days next week ill be passing by waco.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 15 Years Ago
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Ted,
I just got a set of Sanderson shorties for my 57 Tbird. I won't be able to install them for at least a couple months the way things are going here. I don't expect they would flow very well as the are small and made for the tight fit in a 57 Tbird. I can ship them to you for the test if you like and then get them back after you are finished. They are bare metal, not chromed or coated. I intend on painting them when I do the install. Let me know and give me your shipping address, etc. if you want them.
Mark Hebard
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Kenny. If it’s not too much trouble, do drop your headers off at my shop while you’re passing through. I’ll include them in the test. Mark. Thanks for the offer but it appears that I’ll not need your particular set of headers at this time. I have a set of headers already here that should be representative of yours.
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By 569104 - 15 Years Ago
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Here is another link to some header theory. http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm Also, Does anyone have experience with Speedway Motors chassis headers for Y-Block F100's. If anyone has a set of these they can donate to the dyno cause I know I would be interested in the results. I'm sure Charlie would be too. Thanks, Greg ps. This is my first post here....fantastic site. I have two 1956 F100's. One big window and one small window. Both Y-blocks!
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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 DeTomaso Pantera 180 deg exhaust manifolds as mentioned in previous link. Hard to fit, but...
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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The 180 degree concept, isn't that a tri-Y design?
The Pantera is on my list of cars to own one day. That, a Ferrari 308, a Porsche 914, and, the expensive one that I may never be able to afford, a Bugatti T57SC Atlantic. Other than that, I imagine it will be customs and hot rods.
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By John Mummert - 15 Years Ago
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We did some dyno testing a while back with exhaust manifolds. Both the Ramhorns and 57-later flat top manifolds with 2-1/4" head pipes made 290HP. The same engine made around 350HP with short 1-3/4" - 1-7/8" fenderwells that Jerry Christenson built. The Hedman style T-Bird headers took a 339HP engine down to around 295HP With regard to design: I have found from a lot flow bench testing that the Y-Block exhaust port is seriously hurt by any tube smaller than 1-3/4". The problem seems to be that the exhaust exits in uncontrolled multiple paths. I call it a scatter-gun. It appears that the large tube is needed to bring the multiple streams back into a single stream. Regarding length: a very short header can work very well. The primary tubes need to be 20" or less. From there I believe that the tubes should be 36"+. The short headers seem to be too short to create standing waves while the longer headers take advantage of tuned waves. I think that lengths in between are long enough to be tuned but to an RPM that is outside the normal operating range of a Y-Block.
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By Barry L - 15 Years Ago
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John Not quite following what you mean on the tube lengths. Are you describing a tri-y style where two cylinders use up to 20 inch(1 3/4) tubes, into one larger tube(1 7/8 or 2) of 36 inches long. Followed by the next two cylinders,20 in . primaries into larger 36 tube....and finally the two 36 inch tubes join at a collector??? I hope I haven't lost you with my Polak description. Barry L
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Then will a 1 3/4" header be ok to use for the street in the case of the Y? Does porting affect the tube size requirements? I've also discovered that tube sizes larger than 1 5/8" will result in a port which is larger than the hole in commonly available gaskets, which means that in many cases it will be larger than the port in the head. Is this of any concern?
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By MarkMontereyBay - 15 Years Ago
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Hmmm....I am sitting here looking at the 1 1/2" ports on the Sanderson shorties I just purchased. Mine is a stock 57 312 other than MSD/Petronix and a newer Holley 4bbl. I am not sure these are any better than the 57 stock manifolds or worse.
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By 569104 - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie, I'm not even close to knowledgeable in this field but this thread has prompted a lot of reading. So, in attempt to help answer the tubing size issue, I found this from the Burns Stainless web site, part 4 of a 5 part series on welding headers. It can be found under their Technology header... "So, when fitting the header pipe at the head, it is critical that the exhaust pipe be either “port-fit,” or slightly larger (0.030” or less) than the exhaust port for proper flow. The top of the port is the most critical section as this is typically the place of highest gas velocity during blowdown. It is best that the header tube be oriented parallel to the top of the port. Also, we prefer that the transition from the port to the primary tube be as smooth as possible over at least the top 90 degrees. Some header builders prefer the “step” at the port reasoning that the step will minimize back-flow or reversion. If this method is employed, the step should only be used at the bottom of the port."... Also, from all my reading it appears for the RPM ranges most common to "street engines" the longer 36" primary tubes would be prefered. If you have the room.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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MarkMontereyBay (3/17/2010) Hmmm....I am sitting here looking at the 1 1/2" ports on the Sanderson shorties I just purchased. Mine is a stock 57 312 other than MSD/Petronix and a newer Holley 4bbl. I am not sure these are any better than the 57 stock manifolds or worse.
If they're anything like the truck headers they produce, they must be good for about 300hp based on Charlie's experience. They're probably fine for your 312.
Charlie,
After thinking about it, maybe the headers are the reason you didn't see any improvement last year with the new engine. Perhaps they are at their limit.
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By BIGREDTODD - 15 Years Ago
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John Mummert (3/17/2010) The Hedman style T-Bird headers took a 339HP engine down to around 295HPJohn, What were the primary tube sizes on these headers? Was that a contributing factor?
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By John Mummert - 15 Years Ago
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Barry: The 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" headers I described were 4 tube step headers into a single collector. I think they worked okay because they were too short to really be "tuned" to any particular RPM during our dyno testing of 3000-6200. These headers showed quite a few peaks and valleys in the power curve but they were very small. When we tried a set of long tube headers there were fewer peaks and valleys but they were more pronounced. Regarding the Hedman style headers, they were 1-1/2" tri Y style that fit in a T-Bird. I think the flat top exhaust manifolds would have just as well. It seems that headers with 26-30" primary tubes will be tuned to RPM levels above 7000RPM so probably won't work well for street engines. Regarding flanges a local engineer named Jim Feuling used to make headers with a large oval cone that mated the flange to the primary tube with large end welded to the flange. His theory was that the exhaust would shoot right past the mismatch, but it would prevent reversion at low RPM. I just did a quick search on the web for Jim Feuling anti reversion exhaust and found some interesting things. His later design went in-line in the primary tube. Food for thought!
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By 57FordPU - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie, After thinking about it, maybe the headers are the reason you didn't see any improvement last year with the new engine. Perhaps they are at their limit. Charlie Mc, You are very perceptive. Tim is just finishing a third new 258" Y for the brick. Today we discussed more chassis dyno runs and one of the comparisons will be different headers. Perhaps we will make Jerry C smile after all (remember, he wants me to toss these Sandersons). Ted's research will be closely scrutinized as well. Headers are one of the last frontiers that we have explored and perhaps we have had our priorities a little out of line. We will share any new positive data.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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Hmmm! Lots to think about here, I'm very curious as to the outcome of the header testing, paitently awaiting results.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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charliemccraney (3/17/2010)
The Pantera is on my list of cars to own one day. That, a Ferrari 308, a Porsche 914, and, the expensive one that I may never be able to afford, a Bugatti T57SC Atlantic. Other than that, I imagine it will be customs and hot rods.
Why does my taste have to be so expensive?
http://auto.freedomblogging.com/2010/05/06/ultra-rare-bugatti-could-be-worlds-most-expensive-car/33593/
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By mctim64 - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie, your tastes are wide and varied to be sure.
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By jepito - 15 Years Ago
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A few things i have read, found at the track, and learned on the chassis dyno.
Its better to be a little big than a too small
Tri Y will have a broad torque curve, 4-1 makes the most peak power.
primary lengths should be equal.
the collector on a 4-1 should have a cone in the center of the primaries to help flow together as smooth as possible.
If exhaust temp changes then size/length may need to be changed. You are tuning a sound wave that is traveling though the exhaust gases. The speed of sound changes when the density of the air changes.
If you can't fit the ideal primary length then you can run 1/2 or 1/3 length. If 1/2 length you will be "in tune" twice in the rpm range, but with 1/2 the effect. this broadens the power range, but with less peak.
A straight through muffler will make more power than an intrusive one, even if the straight through is longer. Made 10hp more with an 18" super trap(with no baffle) than with a 4" shoenfeld. the super trap was also quieter.
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