By Daniel Jessup - 15 Years Ago
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I have read Ted's article in the Y block mag (and his comments here on this site) about rocker arm geometry. Very good stuff-I learned quite a bit, but it did get some gears turning... My question may be out there a little bit, but I did want to ask to see what, if anything, can one do by playing around with push rod length? Obviously this would change the overall valve lift at the end of the parts train. Most of the time when I see any info about push rod length, I always read something about the fact that push rod length should match the heads you are using. I understand about the 56-57 lengths being shorter, and that all of the others (54-55, 58-64) were longer. Obviously, in 56 adn 57, all Y blocks came with the ECG 6564 1.54 ratio rocker arms, hence the shorter length. Theoretically, what would happen if one were to use the longer length rod with the hi ratio rockers? I have early heads on my 292, and one bank has a set of 6564 and the other has (had) a set of 1.43 rockers. I can only assume that one should use push rod length in accordance to rocker arm ratio as mentioned above...correct? Knowing that I am going to put a blower on the motor and I want to get those exhaust gases scavenged at a pretty good rate.....how about using the shorter push rod on the intake rocker and the longer push rod on the exhaust rocker? Would this create a dynamic balance problem with the valve train? Does all of this sound too whacky to even deal with??? Deos anyone else ever have these crazy thoughts?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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By using the longest push rod possible, you will maximize the rocker ratio. And if you're going to go through the trouble of measuring for the push rod, you may as well perfect the geometry at the same time.
I have crazy thoughts all the time.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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The obvious advantage to having ‘perfect’ rocker arm geometry at the valve tip would be minimized valve guide wear. Changing the pushrod length on the Y simply changes the rocker arm ratio with only minor changes to the actual valvetrain geometry. But talking ratios, going from a 1.4 ratio to a 1.5 ratio at the rockers for a cam that has a lobe lift of 0.287” will get you a net gain of 0.029” at the valve. I did test two different pushrod lengths on the dyno mule going from the shortest to the longest and picked up a clean 3 HP by simply going from short to long. That's pretty cheap horsepower. But I’ll add this little tidbit to get you thinking. By raising the rocker arm stands so that the valvetrain geometry is higher than ‘perfect’, the low lift flow at the valve can be increased due to the rocker now working at a faster rate when the valve first starts to open. Camshaft design plays into this but most cams respond nicely to this on both the intake and exhaust valves. Even though the net or overall valve lift decreases by doing this, an increase in performance typically takes place due to the valve actually opening at a quicker rate. Remember that the valve still starts opening at its original starting point and this is not to be confused with the rate at which the valve opens. The higher the shaft is placed above that ‘perfect’ or optimum position, the greater the acceleration rate is for the initial valve opening but this is at the expense of increased guide wear and overall reduced valve lift. At this point the roller tipped rocker arms have a definite advantage. On a race car this increase in wear is a moot point but for a vehicle that’s going to be used for 100K miles, it’s a point worth considering. As Charlie brings up, the geometry should be adjusted first and then the pushrod length appropriately selected. If the pushrod length is selected first, then rocker arm geometry adjustments are limited if trying to stay with the original pushrod length choice.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 15 Years Ago
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I apologize for hijacking this thread, but all this discussion re: swapping pushrods brings up a basic question that has always bothered me. Namely, the consequences of assembly errors using broken-in/mated parts in new positions (pushrods/lifters/rockers, bearings/races, etc.). Frequently warned against, but never explained in detail. Can anyone shed light?
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By Speedbump - 15 Years Ago
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On most street engines, it probably won't make much difference unless you make a huge error, but you can get some eye opening results if you make an adjustable pushrod and put a dial indicator on the valve to measure lift. Playing with increases/deareases in @.050" length, you can SEE some pretty interesting gains in lift when you get close to the "perfect" length. You also want to make sure that perfect length/max lift puts the rocker arm swept area on the valve close to the center, especially for long street life. Takes a little time, but if you have it, it's kinda fun.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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DANIEL TINDER (3/14/2010) I apologize for hijacking this thread, but all this discussion re: swapping pushrods brings up a basic question that has always bothered me. Namely, the consequences of assembly errors using broken-in/mated parts in new positions (pushrods/lifters/rockers, bearings/races, etc.). Frequently warned against, but never explained in detail. Can anyone shed light?Here are some generalities. Lifters should remain on the same lobes on which they have been run. New lifters can be installed on used cams as long as the cam lobes are in good condition. Rocker arms need to stay with the same valves unless the rocker tips have been refurbished at which point the rocker shaft itself becomes a consideration. If replacing the shafts and refurbishing the rocker tips, rockers can be installed anew in any order. If rebushing the rocker arms, its recommended to use new shafts at the same time. Pushrods can be interchanged freely as long as there are no obvious wear patterns taking place but keeping them in the same locations will sometimes minimize rocker adjustments due to the slight variations that can be found in effective length.
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By DANIEL TINDER - 15 Years Ago
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Ted,
Great info! Will print a hard copy for future reference (amazing how scarce data like this is).
That being said, the intent of my original question was actually more metallurgical. Guess I should assume that 2nd time parts break-in failures due to the type/thickness of hardening layer, surface disruptions being more likely with higher speed frictional annealing, etc.?
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By Daniel Jessup - 15 Years Ago
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Fellas, I have been reading the answers and posts that have been listed here over the last couple of days...I am just having these moments taking it all in. Great thing is, all of this kind of talk only motivates me to get at it a little more and start experimenting on my own with some different setups (within reason of course). Lots to do...
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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Ted (3/15/2010)
DANIEL TINDER (3/14/2010) I apologize for hijacking this thread, but all this discussion re: swapping pushrods brings up a basic question that has always bothered me. Namely, the consequences of assembly errors using broken-in/mated parts in new positions (pushrods/lifters/rockers, bearings/races, etc.). Frequently warned against, but never explained in detail. Can anyone shed light?Here are some generalities. Lifters should remain on the same lobes on which they have been run. New lifters can be installed on used cams as long as the cam lobes are in good condition. Rocker arms need to stay with the same valves unless the rocker tips have been refurbished at which point the rocker shaft itself becomes a consideration. If replacing the shafts and refurbishing the rocker tips, rockers can be installed anew in any order. If rebushing the rocker arms, its recommended to use new shafts at the same time. Pushrods can be interchanged freely as long as there are no obvious wear patterns taking place but keeping them in the same locations will sometimes minimize rocker adjustments due to the slight variations that can be found in effective length. TED, as usual your years of expierence and wisdom explain all questions very well, and as you point out, generalities more than exact rocket science lay with the reassembly of used parts due to the variables of the parts used. Thanks again, i enjoy your pearls of wisedom. regards bill.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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I once did a Y block back when I was 18, rebuilding it in the car with used parts, I took all the lifters, push rods and rockers and lapped them all in sets while sitting on the fine sand beach at the waters edge, ran that car over 100 miles each way to work for over a year with a few large construction workers tagging along. I would also bring the car up to 100mph everyday in one spot on the interstate just before exiting and never had a glitch of trouble. This was in a 62 Galaxie and the one thing I didn't know at the time was that the 239 crank was a different stroke. The 239 was covered in grass on a farm and the guy said I could have it, when I opened it up it looked brand new inside while the outside was a ball of rust, so I used the crank and bearings not knowing I destroked the motor and lowered the compression. It wasn't a tire fryer but down the highway it cruised beautiful. I sold it to a guy who used it as a daily driver for many years after.
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