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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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Ok so i just discovered the megasquirt EFI controllers. for those of you who havnt heard of them they sell kits where you can basically build your own EFI computer and they are totally tunable. So that got me to thinking about a Multi-port fuel injected 292. Noramally im against electronic crap but for everyday driver efficiency(or super high performance) it could see merit. So i thought i would start this thread and throw out an ideal about how to build such a system and see what if there is any interest.
So first of all you would need the electronics.
1. mega-squirt controller
2. mega-squirt relay board
3. wiring/sensors/etc.
then the other parts
1.throttle body (5.0 ford?)
2.injectors
3.intake(possible take a mummert alum and drill and bung for injectors and adapt throttle body?)
4fuel system
There many more aspect of a system like this but this is a jumping off point for a discussion at least. i realize the modified intake might not be as good as a custom one but for an everyday driver i think it would work just fine by taking and drilling and welding in bungs in each of the runners to allow to put in 8 injectors. this would make for a pretty reasonably priced injected system as apposed to 2-6 grand for one. So what do you guys think
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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It would be quite a feat to figure out how to fit 8 injectors in a stock manifold. The top runners are easy. There is limited room available for the lower runners. Throttle bodies with the high pressure multi-port injectors seem to be a good "modern" way to go. This has had me thinking of fitting 4 injectors very near to where the carb mounts.
A 5.0 throttle body should be fairly easy to adapt. I know Edelbrock makes an adapter that mounts to a square bore carb flange. I've seen a few others but I don't know if they are production or custom pieces.
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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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oh yea i forgot about the stacked ports, might still be able to fit them in tho. Its been a long time since i did anything with my 292 so i was just thinking. keep the input coming tho
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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59flatbedford (4/3/2010)
oh yea i forgot about the stacked ports, might still be able to fit them in tho. Its been a long time since i did anything with my 292 so i was just thinking. keep the input coming thoThis thread will become dribble like other forums have, if it were that simple it would have been done and not practicle for everyone to rush in and do, check the Hollowhead guys who have plenty of megasquirt expierence and modified y block induction systems. Lets not get carried away with pie in the sky.
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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Jep, been there, done that or how they say  . LordMrFord is the man to ask about Megasquirt things. I just fab hard pieces...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqSuzbN7TLM
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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TBI-style fuel-only is pretty simple and is good as 8 point.
I have Megasquirt 2 assembled by myself, but MS 1 is easier and got almost same stuff than MS 2.
Assembling is quite easy if you know anything about electronic circuits.
If you not then you can get a assembled from diyautotune.com like cheapest version, http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirti-programmable-efi-system-pcb22-assembled-unit-p-34.html
I got quite new WinXP laptop with USB adapter in my own project, but I had older laptop with Win98 and serial port, which worked just fine. I recommented machine, what can run Tunerstudio, http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/ , cause that is awesome program to MS tuning. MegaTune is lighter, but not easier. Works still fine.
Mating the MS box to tuning program is hardest thng if you are not computer person, but I hink, TunerStudio is made is easy.
MegaManual is Megasquirter's bible, but it starts to be hard reading for beginner
http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm
In simplest of versions, MS EFI needs some TBI-style throttle body like 350 Chevy TBI unit.
It has injctors, pressure regulator, Throttle position sensor(TPS) and all the fittings.
Then you have to have atleast 18 PSI fuel pump (if using not TBI injectors, you need 60 PSI) and return line to tank or surge tank.
Then you need Intake air temperature sensor(IAT), Coolant temp sensor(CLT) and Lambda sensor.
Simplest way is get them from Chevy, narrow band(normal) Lambda is better to be 3 or 4-wire version.
RPM is easy to get from some pointless module in distributor.
And if you want to upgrade to Ignition control too, just lock the dizzy and wire the coil from some coil driver like Bosch, MSD or Crane.
 Some wiring example from my project album...
Edit: I found a wiring pic for TBI and simple ignition control, RPM pick up is like four bolts on damper and HALL-sensor but it can take from dizzy too.
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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Eaasyyy!!! Jeah?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Can Megasquirt do sequential firing of multi-port injectors? The diagram looks to be a batch fire system.
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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MS3 can.
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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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wow you guys have just turned this thread into a wealth of information for me. Ive been reading a lot about the megasquirt systems and am seriously considering coming up with something for my 59 4x4. That intake looks really sweet and really doesn't look that hard to build so i might be pirating your ideals if you don't mind. I would really like to eventually control both ignition and fuel with the megasquirt, probably set it up for just fuel and when thats all dialed in hook up the ignition so im only dealing with one variable at a time. What would be the best way to control the ignition as obviously the dizzy isnt set up for it. could you replace the pionts dizzy with an electronic one like msd makes and wire it that way? just curious as i think it would make for a neat truck to have an electrically controlled 292 even tho normally im a points and 4 barrel kind of guy. So do you have any of the systems you guys are building up and running with any feedback on power, ease of starting, fuel efficiency, and so on. Thanks for the replys guys.
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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You are free to copy our things  . Our single turbo gave us 330 hp with 630 Nm of torque and peak hp came at 4900 rpm. Max torque came at 2600 rpm or even a little below it. Here is that old video from 2008 december. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yFwrPj8SnUThe engine starts easily with efi and wwe have crane xr-i in it's dizzy. LordMrford has a crank trigger in his set up.
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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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thanks for your guys help i will for sure be thinking about such a project as i think the benifits on injection might serve me well for a daily driver. Would you be willing to post up any more details about your intake.
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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My intake...
I used to have crank trigger like this, worked very well.
Testing with Chevy TBI.
Testing with Motorcycle throttle bodies and distributorless ignition.
www.youtube.com/user/MrFairlane#p/a/u/0/F4yG5z6550k
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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Its funny thing that ignition is much easier to get than fuel injection.
Fuel got much more variables.
You can drive with carb and tune the spark map and then get the fuel stuff.
You can do fuel first, but fuel map changes much more if you tune spark map, so spark first is a little bit easier, I think.
My fuel effiency was same with my TBI and old carb version, but I think a worn out engine was biggest problem then.
Power gain in lower RPM's was high and it was little bit hard drive with low stall Cruise-O-matic.
Stall was good in about 300-350 RPM.
New setup with motorcycle throttle bodies and dizzyless ignition got too few miles (about 1/2) so I cannot say much about it, all can I say that fuel effiency is not good as it used to be if lopey idle tells me something(new cam with hard grind may have something with that)
Crane XR-1 is good to trigger pick up and Crane HI-6 or Bosch 139 is good to amplify the spark.
Just lock your dizzy to 60 degree and turn your rotor to point about 25 degree so MS can start to calculate ignition timing from 60 and wide rotor can deliver spark from 0 to 55 degree.
I hope somebody understands this cause something went wrong with my english studies way back, since 3rd grade.
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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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ok thats a very interesting set up you have. are the intake pictures of your new set up with the motorcycle tb?
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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Yes.
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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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do you have any pics of the set up on the car as im kinda curious as to how it all looks and works.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Better than pictures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4yG5z6550k
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By 59flatbedford - 15 Years Ago
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wow that is really cool looking with the velocity stacks (or whatever they are called) almost looks like an old hilborn set up. So im curious about the multiple throttle bodies. Im assuming that they would have to be timed up so they all open at the same time and rate? sorry for the dumb questions but im new to fuel injection.
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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Yes, all must be in perfect sync.
Im still wondering, how I get it done, cause my bicycle braking cable project was doomed.
With solid shaft, I cannot get progressive lingage, so now Im working someshort middle axle with two individual short cable thing.
I think, progressive lingage is must thing, when you have 8 x 1,5" butterfly plates to hold idle speed.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I don't think progressive linkage will work in your case - unless you have another manifold in the works. It looks like each throttle body feeds only one cylinder. You can add an idle air valve. You can borrow the one from your Chevy tb. With that, you close the throttle blades at idle and the idle speed is controlled by the computer via the idle air valve. You'll have to make a mini manifold so that the valve can feed all 8 cylinders and I don't know if it would cause any problem but it would link all of the cylinders. It might also make a for a good source of vacuum.
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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I mean progressive via asymmetric throttle cable wheel. Opening is small on idle and gets bigger when foot goes down. So Throttle body side cable wheel is elliptic.
Vacuum source must be smaller pipe and got restricted manifold sides, but adding right caliber tubing to idle air is thing what must be try someday.
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By Doug T - 15 Years Ago
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You may be able to get the kind of "progressivism" you are trying for with the cable and changing radius by changing linkage lengths and initial angle position of the arms. You can try it graphiclly or with a CAD program. Generally speaking the rotational change is greatest when the arm is at 90 deg to the pulling link. Since you have to "turn the corner" (the throttle shafts are parallel with the engine crankshaft and the gas peddle shaft is perpendicular to it) some kind of bell crank has to be included also and that provides more possiblities. Look at WWW.Kinsler.com pg 68 for ideas of how to make some kinds of linkage that turns corners. Of course you could use a Toyota electronic peddle, I hear those are working out real well!
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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I must think of that, That I know for sure, electronic gas pedal is not going to my car. You would think same if you got success procent low as me.
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By GregW - 15 Years Ago
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If I ever saw the intake manifold design from a 26B on a y block I would prolly go insane. THAT would be a hotrod for my generation. EFI and still old school Food for thought.... have a look at the attachment. LordMrFord (4/9/2010)
I mean progressive via asymmetric throttle cable wheel. Opening is small on idle and gets bigger when foot goes down. So Throttle body side cable wheel is elliptic.
Vacuum source must be smaller pipe and got restricted manifold sides, but adding right caliber tubing to idle air is thing what must be try someday.
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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Hmmm... System developer must had worm in his brains, but telescopic intake pipes are still awesome.
I think, MS3 can be programmed to drive stepper motor with engine speed, so we need just few more pipes and two feet bicycle braking cable...
BTW. I seriously thinked to do cylinder deactivation system like Cadillac Northstar, but then I realized the valves will overheat without fuel, so valves must be shut or open and that will be hard job to do to pushrod engines.
Then that idea went to the trashcan.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Will the valves overheat? The exhaust valves don't get cooled with fuel and they don't seam to overheat. With no combustion taking place in that cylinder, it seems like the exhaust valve will be cooler. The intake might get hotter than usual but will it be to a point of overheating? I don't think it will get hotter than the coolant temperature. If it's a spike that takes place the moment the fuel is shut off, maybe it can be programed to progressively cut the fuel until the valve temperature stabilizes to the ambient temperature.
I really don't think it would overheat, if it kept opening, any more than it would if it stayed closed. It will probably be cooler if it kept opening just because there will be a constant supply of cool air moving past it.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 15 Years Ago
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Ford Powerstroke Diesels used an electronic pedal with a Throttle Position and Idle position sensor built in.
Mark
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Here's an interesting article. I just started reading it.
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Cylinder-Deactivation-Reborn-Part-1/A_2618/article.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Cylinder-Deactivation-Reborn-Part-2/A_2623/article.html
Google Cylinder deactivation and a lot of stuff comes up.
It looks like the main reason they leave the valves closed is to take advantage of an "air spring". I've been through several articles so far and haven't seen anything stating that leaving the valves to open and close just won't work. If anything, the "air spring" can be used every other time. I wonder if the pressure drop created by such cylinders might disrupt the air flow enough to make the system more inefficient than if it was running on all cylinders. Actually, in your one throat per cylinder setup, that would not be an issue.
An idle air control could be used to allow additional air to the deactivated cylinders to further reduce the pumping loss. since four of your throttle bodies share a common shaft. Maybe run two iacs, one to reduce pumping loss, and one to handle the four active cylinders - it can help with the transition from 8 to 4 cylinders.
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By LordMrFord - 15 Years Ago
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I dont find it anymore so maybe it was a wrong info.
So if we block cylinders 2, 3, 5, 8 to get steady run, we got one major problem. a Lambda-sensor get false readings from air springed cylinders.
I dont know, what it does if we close second bank, but when I first started my motor, I forgot electricity from right side bank, there was no fuel in that side (look how smoke comes from just driver sive at end of video)
http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z132/Reilukaista/?action=view¤t=BadMushroomExperience-1.flv&newest=1
Four banger Y-Block?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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You can try shutting off one bank like the oems do. Just make sure the lambda is in the bank which is always active.
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By drof75 - 15 Years Ago
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I saw this on the JC Witney web site, http://www.jcwhitney.com/powerjection-iii/p2021531.jcwx for $512. N need for fuel return line if application is under 550hp. This really reduces cost. It is obivious Professional Products just copies other products out there, and sells them much cheaper. I wonder if their control module would hold up since they obviously use overseas production facilities. 
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By Hollow Head - 15 Years Ago
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A true bolt on set! No welding required with lambda sensor bung cause it has a gasket and clamps to hold it in place . But I know that works also...
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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That might be alright, though the built in ecm kinda scares me - we know how under hood temps can affect electronics. It's just a rebranded Retrotek product.
I'm curious what else Professional Products does because the Retrotek system is nearly $1500.00. How do they cut $1000 off of the price? Now I'd be cautious.
I just found part of it. $512.00 is the basic kit. It does not include a fuel pump, filter, pressure regulator, pressure gauge. That still doesn't add up to $1000.00 to me. It also says that returnless systems will be available in the future on their website and that all current systems need a return line. I wonder what's up with that.
On the Retrotek site, they show a picture with it used on a supercharged engine but it also says that the map sensor is built in. So the assumption would be that it has at least a 2 bar map sensor built in. They don't say.
Aha, learning more. When the installation instructions are opened at Retrotek, Proffessional Products instructions come up. So maybe I have it backwards. In this case, the Retrotek product is a rebranded Proffessional Products part? That will explain some more of the price difference.
And the instructions say that the map sensor is 2.5bar - plenty for street boosted engines.
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By cw383 - 15 Years Ago
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You guys do know thats just for the fuel pump, not the efi, right?
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