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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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My 272 has been making banging sounds at first startups until warmed up and then lately barely running and really rough....acting as if timing is off. I pulled engine from car (my first thought was to replace engine /trans with something newer, but after seeing what everyone is saying here about keeping car stock thought best to fix and reinstall). Backyard mechanic but not sharp enough to know where to start to see what the problem could be. I thought once the oil pan was off I would be able to see something broken under there (banging sounded like in that area at rear bottom of engine) but now thinking maybe timing chain may have broken....not sure why? So far the only thing off engine is oil pan so asking if there is way to tell if chain is broken without taking front off or if I should be checking something else. In a perfect world I would just drop it off at machine shop and say fix-it but I don't have a thousand bucks or more to be doing that. 
I do have an engine stand but so far only resting on a cart. Should I start tearing down? Car ran perfect before and even after the banging started once warmed up until lately. Pretty much at a loss here and I know this the Technical section but couldn't find the Engine Repair for Dummies section
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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You should be able to see the timing chain with the pan removed. If it broke, the engine would not have run at all.
The banging could be a result of the engine being plain wore out. It's probably just time for a rebuild. You can examine the main and rod bearings and crank journals without having to take it too far apart. You can use a flashlight and examine the cylinder bores. Take it apart, see what it needs, and give it what it needs.
You'll have to find out what's wrong, but I don't know if you'll really be able to fix it for under $1000. If it turns out the cost is higher than you expect, a better approach might be to find a running engine to drop in while you repair this one or just plan for it to be a long project which you work on as money allows. Whenever I try to determine if I can afford a project, I remember something I heard a long time ago. If I can't afford to do it right the 1st time, then I can't afford to do it a 2nd time.
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By rick55 - 15 Years Ago
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With the sump off you can check to see if it is major drama - apart from piston condition.
You should be able to see if the timing chain is still intact from the bottom, though the view is pretty limited.
It is probably a good idea to take the rocker covers off and check that the pushrods are all sitting where they should.
Just make sure that the crank is not hitting the oil pickup.
If you can turn the engine over whilst sitting on a stand, you should be able to feel any knocks whilst turning the engine over by hand.
Check the condition of the engine oil in the bottom of the sump. It should be free of filings. If there are any it is not good.
You can be lucky and it may be something simple.
Good luck.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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I just wanted to highly recommend that you use an engine stand that has FOUR wheels on it and NOT THREE. These Yblocks are very heavy and unstable. Pete
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By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
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Before you take the bottom apart, have you had the rocker covers off? It could be something simple like a bent or broken push rod or a valve hanging open.
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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crenwelge (4/10/2010)
Before you take the bottom apart, have you had the rocker covers off? It could be something simple like a bent or broken push rod or a valve hanging open.Ken, they are my thoughts exactly, so simple to do and common problem. interesting to see result. regards bill.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Automatic transmission? If so, then for the banging noise take a look at the flexplate that hooks to the converter and check for cracked or broken ears.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks to all for the help, yesterday spent day at a Birthday Party at local airport viewing antique airplanes and eating pizza and cake, and today raining here in sunny California so tomorrow for sure I'll be checking engine now that I know where to start. Car does have auto trans so the flex plate is good place to start. Thanks again! 
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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Not sure which is flexplate and what is the converter. In the following pictures is the converter still in the car and is the flexplate fastened to flywheel? Man, I feel stupid.  Is this converter?
 Is this the flexplate...and are these fins broken off (didn't find any pieces also no sign of metal shavings in oil pan) or is the thing made this way? To remove do I only need to remove the bolts shown?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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San Diego Ron (4/12/2010)
Not sure which is flexplate and what is the converter. In the following pictures is the converter still in the car and is the flexplate fastened to flywheel? Man, I feel stupid.
This picture is of the converter. The converter is fastened to the flex plate, which is in turn fastened to the crankshaft. The flex plate is the piece with the gear teeth on it. I think you will find the nuts (or is it bolts) for removing the converter on the engine side of the flex plate.
You found metal shavings in the engine's oil pan? Oh, never mind. You said no sign.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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No, the oil pan was clean with no metal inside. I removed the eight bolts on backside of converter thinking I could then pull the thing off...I'll go out now and remove the many bolts on engine side conecting it to flexplate. Thanks for setting me straight on that one. Does it matter that some of those fins are broken off, if they really have been?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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Ron: The flexplate takes the place of a flywheel. You unbolted this converter from it. As Charlie says, it was bolted to the crankshaft. Those fins are not broken, they were milled off to balance the converter shell. The starter teeth are not on the flexplate in this application. The flexplate is a round plate, about 1/4" thick, with two "ears" riveted to it 180 degrees apart. The ears each have 3 bolt holes to fasten it to the converter. It is not uncommon for these ears to be broken. If you didn't have to unbolt the converter from the flex plate, then the ears are definitely broken. Not too uncommon on those flexplates.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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The tabs with three holes each are not broken. Believe it was Kenneth that said pull the valve covers....  one push-rod on each bank had come loose
 Now, how do I get these back where they belong and everything else back together?....PLEASE!
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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The one push rod should be pretty easy to get. Just slide the rocker arm out of the way, pull it out, examine it for damage, reinstall it, ensuring that it's seated in the lifter. Don't let the push rod go until you feel that it is seated. I give them a wiggle once I think I have them. If they're not seated, it sorta falls out. Also, the oil should um, for lack of a better word, cause the push rod to stick to the lifter and if you pull up slightly on the push rod you will feel the additional weight of the lifter. After a while you get used to it and don't think about these things.
If you can see the other, you can get it out with a special tool
http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic39754-3-1.aspx?
If it can't be seen, then it'll probably be easier to replace that one with another. Fishing it out can be a pita.
Once you get them reinstalled, turn the engine over by hand to ensure that the valves aren't stuck.
It looks like it's only intake valves that were affected. Did it smoke a lot?
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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Was able to pull both of them up and wrapped both with piece of wire to keep them from falling back. In morning I will do the other things you said and see if it may be OK. It was smoking a bit and barely running. Could one being loose cause the banging noise the car would make while cold and then quiet out after warming up...all this before they must have both come off the lifters?
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By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
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How old is your gas? Stale will cause valves to hang open and then bend push rods.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I don't think intake push rods coming off will cause any banging. Maybe it will with enough of them off. I had push rods jump off a couple times on the engine that came with the truck. It would just smoke and miss. That was always only 1 push rod in each instance. An exhaust push rod coming off, however, can cause some problems.
You know, it looks like it is #3 and #7 which are affected. 7 fires right after 3 and they're on the same crank throw. Couple that with the fact that 25% of your engine is disabled, and maybe it will cause some noise. And they are on the back half of the crank which is the approximate location where you said you heard the noise.
In a way, I hope that's not the problem because you certainly didn't have to pull the engine for that. But if it is, you'll be back on the road in no time.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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Didn't get a chance to work on engine today but did go out and pull the two push-rods (Yes, they are #3 and #7) and they are not bent or broken. Tomorrow I'll put them back and pull plugs and turn motor over by hand to see what happens and if all the valves are working along with distributer and see if timing mark is close to tdc with #1 piston up. Does that sound about right? The gas is old in car...I took it from my boat when I had to drain the tank (couple years old)....I'll drain it and use fresh. Will I have to wait until engine is back in car and running to see if oil is getting up to heads, isn't that what causes push-rods to come loose...no oil causing valves to stick? You guys are great...could never have done any of this without your help
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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You can check that oil is getting to the rockers with the engine out. You'll need to remove the distributor and make sure the engine has oil in it. Use a 1/4" socket with an extension to engage the oil pump shaft. It will be easiest if you have a drill which will fit onto the extension. If not , a ratchet wrench, or a speed wrench will work. Turn counter-clockwise and watch for oil at the rockers. It might take a minute depending on how you're turning the shaft.
It looks like you're getting oil. I think I can see oil pooled on the edge of the valve spring retainers on the passenger side head. I can't tell on the driver side but it looks wet over there.
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By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
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Push rods jumping out of socket is caused by valves hanging open which is caused by stale gas. No oil to the rockers will make them squeak and wears your rocker bushing and shaft in a hurry. I have seen old engines sit so long that the rockers rusted tight to the shaft, but I don't think is your case. They don't need a whole lot of oil, but I would check it with the electric drill method. While its out of the car, make sure its secure on an engine stand and fix everything. Stuff will be a lot harder to get to once its back in the car.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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Reinstalled push-rods by marking threads on adjusters, backing off until could get over rods then tightened to mark. Turns over by hand and with #1 piston TDC...Timing mark is right at TDC and rotor is pointing at #1 position at distributer. Does this mean valves are all working and should I button it up or do I need to adjust all the valves (if you can do it cold)? The oil pan is off so can't check to see if heads are getting oil at this time (both heads are wet with oil). Also noticed front pulley and crankcase damper are not straight on shaft (one side about 1/8" off). Feel I am getting close but the bubble could burst.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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If none of the valves were binding while you were turning it, then it's probably ok. Just make sure to use fresh gas the next time you start it. You can check the lash with it cold. I think the cold spec is .019 for intake and exhaust.
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By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
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San Diego Ron (4/14/2010)
Also noticed front pulley and crankcase damper are not straight on shaft (one side about 1/8" off). Feel I am getting close but the bubble could burst. Ron, seems like the rubber mounted harmonic damper ring has let go and the whole lot will require replacing, the damper ring should be running true to fan belt groove, look for uneven rubber sticking out of it. regards bill.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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Ron Now that the engine is out of the car it will be a lot easier to fix any problems. From your rather vague description of the reason you pulled it out in the first place it is hard to know what to suggest just what to look at. Having two pushrods dropped will certainly cause a loss of power but may not be what is making the noise. Try to give a better, more complete description of just what was going on with you motor and who knows, it might get fixed the first time. Try it.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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I was just thinking the same thing...I do know the gas was old (removed from my boat that I didn't want to waste) but the banging noise was before that and stopped after engine warmed up. I would hate to put everything back and still have the noise. Could the converter be hitting against the bell housing...it does have some nicks on fins? Thought maybe the exhaust was hitting where it goes through the frame but not so. Really bad loud noise, sounds like a bucket of bolts banging around but can't tell exactly from where even being under the car with it running...sounds like from bottom rear of engine but can't rule out water pump (car never overheats). It may never run again but it looks pretty good...maybe coffee table? 
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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Ron: There is some sheet metal ducting riveted inside the bellhousing. Make sure it hasn't come loose or broken. Look for signs that the fins were hitting it.
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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Thought for sure that could have been the problem but everything there looks good and tight. 
 It would be nice if it works after getting all this stuff cleaned up
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By San Diego Ron - 15 Years Ago
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John, I looked at that sheet metal again and only thing I could see that may possibly be wrong are the ends near where the starter fits in...are they supposed to be bent into this Y shape? 
 Engine is getting anxious to get back in there
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