Hard/Hot restarting


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By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
Ok I know we have had posts about this topic before and I just skipped over them and maybe read one or two comments . Not thinking I would be in the same boat. Well, I am and I am stuck.

I have 55 bird stock 292 automatic, mummert intake, 415 Holley,Petronix ignition,MSD box and coil. Taylor wires,new plugs gapped properly. Ford Powertrain Headers. I took the bird out for a performance check ride today and all was well. Cruises like a new car and everything was in limits and working as it should . Until I got home. After about 30 minute drive I pulled into driveway and slowed while the garage door opened and car started to stumble while at idle . It eventually stalled. Tried to start car ,nothing. It usually restarts easily if started right away. Not this time. Tried 2 times . Held foot to floor and after about 10 seconds it fired up and acted up stumbled and stalled . Re-start was as bad as the first. Finally got it inside and began to inspect .  I removed float bowl check port for fuel level. Could not tell how much was in there but the float was bouncing up and down as I pushed it. Operated throttle by hand and fuel came out in a good stream on both sides . A few minor leaks from loose screws and nothing more. I didnt notice till today that my vacuum line is connected to a vacuum port on the passenger side of the carb. I am not so sure thats the correct place. When the car does run it runs great on the road and as it gets warm/er it starts to stumble. Idle speed is set at 700-800 RPM. Couldnt find anything outstanding so i drove it again and this time I help the accelerator down a bit to help it keep running. As I pulled into garage it stalled again. Engine temp was  around 170. So, I ask do I need my phillips or common screwdriver to start with? As always your assistance is appreciated . Earl Dagenhart   

                                                                                                                                  

By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
I experienced that sort of thing a couple times. I had the idle mixture too rich.
By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
55Birdman (4/15/2010)
Ok I know we have had posts about this topic before and I just skipped over them and maybe read one or two comments . Not thinking I would be in the same boat. Well, I am and I am stuck.

I have 55 bird stock 292 automatic, mummert intake, 415 Holley,Petronix ignition,MSD box and coil. Taylor wires,new plugs gapped properly. Ford Powertrain Headers. I took the bird out for a performance check ride today and all was well. Cruises like a new car and everything was in limits and working as it should . Until I got home. After about 30 minute drive I pulled into driveway and slowed while the garage door opened and car started to stumble while at idle . It eventually stalled. Tried to start car ,nothing. It usually restarts easily if started right away. Not this time. Tried 2 times . Held foot to floor and after about 10 seconds it fired up and acted up stumbled and stalled . Re-start was as bad as the first. Finally got it inside and began to inspect .  I removed float bowl check port for fuel level. Could not tell how much was in there but the float was bouncing up and down as I pushed it. Operated throttle by hand and fuel came out in a good stream on both sides . A few minor leaks from loose screws and nothing more. I didnt notice till today that my vacuum line is connected to a vacuum port on the passenger side of the carb. I am not so sure thats the correct place. When the car does run it runs great on the road and as it gets warm/er it starts to stumble. Idle speed is set at 700-800 RPM. Couldnt find anything outstanding so i drove it again and this time I help the accelerator down a bit to help it keep running. As I pulled into garage it stalled again. Engine temp was  around 170. So, I ask do I need my phillips or common screwdriver to start with? As always your assistance is appreciated . Earl Dagenhart   

                                                                                                                             

 Earl, have you thought of removing your garage door so you dont have to stop and no problem? Ha, Ha.  Holleys often have flooding problems due to sticking needle/seats, perhaps reset float levels.

By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
I thought about parking it outside. But,my insurance company wont allow that. Hey, how about even trade for yours? Anybody have float settings? I have a new 4.5 power valve. Should I install that one? I also have a spacer but its aluminum. Any thoughts?
By joey - 15 Years Ago
If the car originally ran OK then it's not the spacer or the vacuum line location. Engine stumbling at idle, doesn't sound like it's the power valve. I'd check for a sticking float first of all. I had a pinhole in one once, made the carb behave like you are describing.
By Joe 5bird7 - 15 Years Ago
Don't shoot me, but the only way I solved that problem on my 57 T-bird was to replace the Holley carb with an Edlebrock.  I didn't give in easily as I like keeping the car original, but after having the carb rebuilt professionally, then adjusting and readjusting the floats, installing a pressure  regulator in line, and replacing the power valve the problems continued. I still wasn't ready to give  up on Holley so I bought a new (not rebuilt) one for big bucks.  Same thing....spent several years adjusting and replacing parts and living with the stalling and hard starting when hot.  Finally, I bought an Edlebrock, put it on the car, made absolutely no adjustments, and have  been driving it with no problems for 4 years.  I've still never adjusted anything on it and the engine starts and runs better than ever before.
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
JoeBird,

Those are my thoughts. It seems that every thread here about this issue everyone has parts to replace,adjustments to make etc. All the time I have had Holley carbs on it I have had hard starting issues. This carb was rebuilt by a company in Galveston Texas with a 2 yr warranty. Unfortunately the warranty is gone but still hard starts and stumbling . I hate to spend money for a new carb but spending money on parts for the one I have may be the wrong road. I have the carb sitting on an aluminum spacer . Should that be addressed first?  BTW I would never shoot a Bird owner.  

By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
Have you tried making any adjustments on the carb? I think those carb places can get the carb pretty close but it cannot be fine tuned until it is installed on the running engine. The idle adjustment is real easy to do. Swapping to a steel needle is only slightly more difficult. Do what you can to get the carb tuned. I'd hate to see you buy another carb only to have the same, or similar problems. Unlike Joebird, I made the switch to Holley from Edelbrock because of a problem I was having but I put good effort into getting the Edelbrock to run right. Simply swapping the carb might not be the answer.
By Ted - 15 Years Ago

Assuming both float levels are fine, then try cleaning the eight air bleeds located at the front of the primary venturies and at the rear of the secondary venturies.  Use carb cleaner with a nozzle to force feed the cleaning solution into each air bleed hole.  Upon recranking the engine, reset the idle mixture screws for best idle or best manifold vacuum.  Baseline for this should be 1½ turns out for each adjustment screw and then adjust both in and out from there.  When you're said and done, both screws should be adjusted approximately the same.

 

Another possibility is a ruptured power valve.  Letting the engine sit for a few hours and then checking the fuel level in the primary fuel bowl to insure that the level are staying up is a good indicator that the power valve itself is okay.

 

What’s the list number on the carb you’re using?

By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
List number is 1483. Just checked fuel level. Car has been sitting all night . Its 9AM here. Fuel bowl is completely dry.
By pegleg - 15 Years Ago
Earl,

       Pull the carb, and fill it with fuel. In a vented area (you knew that). Watch to see where the fuel is coming from. Could be a Metering plate gasket, or most likely, it'd be a ruptured power valve as Ted said. That's pretty common on holleys and those are the symptoms.

   Holley has had a number of QC issues lately, including warped metering blocks. The die caster was not checking the parts and pulling them from the die while they were too hot. They can warp or bend in that condition.  

By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
another fun filled Saturday on the horizon. Thanks for the help. will advise. That list number I found translates to a model 4150 Holley. 600 CFM .Is that right? The rebuilder said it was a 415 CFM. ????
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
 

 

thought pictures may help. 2nd one shows gas leak at back bowl. Most likely from sight hole. 

By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
Earl -

Aside from the other good suggestions I read above - put steel needle and seat assemblies in there. Hoosier convinced me after I found the sticking needle seat problem more than once. 

Get a thermal isolator spacer - it will lower the body / throttle plate temp of the carb a considerable amount. 

Have a fun weekend Hehe

does fuel run out of that bowl if you pull the plug?

By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
fuel does NOT run out of opening. Bowl seems to be empty.
By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
Birdman

   From the pixs of your Holley I believe you have a 4150. The clue is the rear metering block on the 4150 vs the metering plate (thin with fixed jets) on the 4160. And see, a 600CFM is not too big for a good running Yblock.

By aussiebill - 15 Years Ago
Birdman, i was wondering if having that accel return spring pulling on warm fuel hose might cause future problems, or is it just tempory while you sort it out. best regards bill.
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
The spring is a temp fix. No place to put it right now.
By rick55 - 15 Years Ago
My experience with Holleys is that they are always a tad on the rich side on idle and if you touch the trhottle when idling you are activating the biggest squirting accelerator pumps of almost any carby out there.

These carbs are generally bullet proof and set up properly are the equal of anything out there.

They only have a couple of crucial settings.

Float level, powervalve to suit engine, accelerator pump lever clearance and of course the primary air screws.

Carby shop salesman may lie to make a sale. If you number for the carby comes back as a 600cfm, then a 600 it is.

If you posted the number in your next reply we could check our parts numbers to confirm.

That is an unusual looking vacuum secondary carb with a secondary metering plate. They are usually only fitted to double pumpers. 1848 and 1850 which are the two most common vac sec carbs do not use this secondary metering plate.

A 4.5 power valve will not work on your engine unless you have a highly modified engine as the vacuum should never get that low to open the power valve under acceleration.

The 6.5 valve is the normal street valve.

The description you have given in your post suggests that the engine is flooding which usually points to float level/needle and seat problem but if the fuel is draining away quickly that will also be flooding your engine if it is leaking internally. That suggest the powervalve is faulty - they have a little spring loaded plunger which regulates fuel - this could be faulty though it would be lucky to run well at any time if it was.

I hope this, along with what has been written already gives you some ideas.

Regards
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
Number stamped on carb is 1483. I believe this carb is a model 4150 . 600 CFM . Do you have float settings and any other settings for this carb?
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
OK  I put gas in carb last night and checked it this morning and its still there. No evidence of leaking. Is this because the engine is cold and hasnt been started since Thursday or some other poltergeist? I am going to take the carb apart in either case and check everything as a safety measure and at least I will now its as it should be.
By Ted - 15 Years Ago
55Birdman (4/16/2010)
Number stamped on carb is 1483. I believe this carb is a model 4150 . 600 CFM .
The Holley #1483 carbs are listed as originally being installed on the ’58 Edsels with the 361 engine.  It is also listed as a model 4150 carb meaning the secondary metering block is standard fare for this one.  Many of the early Holley model 4150 carbs also did not have externally adjustable needle and seat assemblies which would be another way to identify them (unless someone retrofitted newer bowls on the carb of which I’m guilty of doing that).  I have no literature stating the cfm on this particular carb but if you can provide measurements of the venturies and throttle bores, then this can be determined without much effort.

55Birdman (4/16/2010)
Do you have float settings and any other settings for this carb?
With the fuel bowl inverted, measure from the end of the float to the surface directly below the float.  According to the Holley manual, the value you’re shooting for is 13/16” for this particular carb.

Another item to check while you’re on the inside of the carb is the power valve gasket.  This gasket being improperly installed or being the inappropriate gasket for the particular power valve being used can also cause problems with fuel leakage past the power valve.

By 55vickey - 15 Years Ago
are you sure the temp gauge is right, could be percolating, engines heat up for a while once the engine is shut down. I've had the similar situation, starts great, runs great on the highway but stumbles at a stoplight. My car runs warm so I know thats a possibility. Gary
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
I suppose no one is ever sure things work the way they are supposed to. All I can say is that the temp appears close. I went out this AM looking for a carb kit. No one in this part of the world has any. No book to look up the part .Nothing.Will have to order it . Or get a new carb. 

TED the carb is an older 4150 no adjusting screws. None of the parts places heer go back that far and none have Holley kits. Back to square one I guess. Thanks for all the information. It is priceless to me. 

By Ted - 15 Years Ago
55Birdman (4/17/2010)
......Or get a new carb.
Earl.  I’m not much of a fan of the Holley 4150 carbs built in the late Fifties.  I typically change out the bowls to the newer bowls to make them more servicable but the factory metering on those carbs still leaves a bit to be desired.  With the newer bowls, a newer carb kit works on those particular carbs.  With so many more modern carbs being available that are essentially bolt ons, it’s just easier to replace the carb on my end than thoughly rework an original that has worn throttle shafts added to the list of problems they can have.

 

If going for a new carb, The list #1848-1 (465 cfm) Holley carb would be a suitable choice.  It’s a good all around driver on a either a dead stock or mildly hopped up Y engine.  From an appearance point of view it looks like an original carb.  Be sure to shop around though as pricing varies considerably on this carb.  Summit or Jegs will come close to having the best pricing for this carb.

By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
Ted, Those are my thoughts exactly. I guess I need to get out of the 50s rut so to speak and modernize like I did the electric,brakes,steering etc on my bird.Thanks for the comment. Your input is very valuable to me and I always look for your comments on all posts. I always learn something. Thanks  Earl Dagenhart
By 55Birdman - 15 Years Ago
Installed fuel pressure gauge. With engine warm at idle gauge reads 4 psi.