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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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I just checked the voltage on my ballast resistor.With key on and motor not running I have the same voltage in(12.6) as what comes out and feeds the coil.Should it not be 9.6 approx on the output side?I thought these resistors simply quit working altogether and the voltage would be zero comming out if they went bad?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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Mark: Voltage should be about 10 volts with the engine running. If you checked it with the engine off and the points open, you would read battery voltage.
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By rick55 - 15 Years Ago
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Generally speaking the voltage output should be around 8 Volts with the key on - depending on the battery, whether the engine is running or not. The resistor may show less voltage when the engine is running, though the difference should be very slight.
The reading you are getting would suggest that the resistor is shorting out, being bypassed by the starter solenoid or that the coil is open circuit.
Why were you checking the output to the coil.
Check the output of the resistor with the engine running.
Check that you haven't got a problem with the wire coming from the starter solenoid to the resistor - this bypasses the resistor for starting purposes. You can do this by removing it from the solenoid. To find which one to remove, it is the one that doesn't cause the solenoid to pull in.
I hope this helps.
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By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
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I am wondering too. What are you trying to determine?
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Still working on my problem.I was checking to make sure the ignition was getting the full 12 volts initially.Just noticed the readings in and out of the resistor were the same.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Mark - What idle speed do you use for the neutral condition - when you have raised it to accomodate the "in-drive drop" what is the difference - like how far does it pull down? and at what speed can it just "hold its own"? I think you already know these numbers - I just couldn't find them too quickly in the thread. You can "hop-up" the ignition (to see if a stronger spark helps at all) by temporarily jumpering around the ballast resistor. It should always do this while starting (bypass wire from the solenoid) - not the best plan for a long test - but OK for a minute or two while evaluating the effect of more energy in the spark.
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By bergmanj - 15 Years Ago
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OldCarMark, You will get the same voltage reading on both sides of the ballast resistor if not running and no electrical load from coil, that is normal. The average voltage will drop on the coil side when wired and running properly (this is the general basis on which Dwell Meters work, too - time on/total time*system voltage = average voltage across points displayed as % dwell): Resistors will not drop voltage unless there's a load on them; i. e., current being drawn through by a load. Hope that this helps you. Regards, JLB
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By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
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Oldcarmark, Is your actual problem in another post, or just what is your problem that you are trying to chase down?
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Kenneth! I am trying to figure out why I cant get this motor running at least resonably well in drive.I have eliminated the carb and timing.The cam gear is not retarded one tooth as was suggested as a possible problem.All I am doing now is checking other possible reasons for poor performance in drive.Thought perhaps the ignition is not getting full voltage available.At the end of last summer I started to have problems with the motor not running well in drive.I rebuilt the motor as I thought the problem was related to mechanical condition as far as uneven compression.The motor was in need of a rebuild once I got it torn down.Still having similar problems.Wether its the same trouble that started last year or a new problem I am not sure.I do have confidence that the motor I assembled is not the cause of the problem I am having.Looking for anything that would fix the bad idle in drive.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hello Steve! I am working without a tach.I have a timing light and vacuum gauge.Set by ear and vacuum gauge in neutral it runs great at about 750.Drop it in gear and it dies.Turn it up to about 900 and it runs so so.To get it running reasonably well in gear ends up at about (est) 1200 -1400 RPM which when shifted to neutral or park is excessive.Putting it in gear with parking brake on is a fight to get the rpms up by adjusting the idle speed screw.3-4 turns to increase speed.At 750 in neutral it acts like air has been cut off when shifted into drive.Basically instantly quits.Best way I can describe it.As the idle speed is increased with the speed screw the ported vacuum opening is exposed causing the advance to kick in.Not a big deal but the timing advances by about 10 degrees.That port is not supposed to be open until you are off idle and moving.Never had this problem with this carb last year prior to rebuilding the motor.In neutral it runs great.Once you are moving after off idle its fine.Lots of power and accelerates fine.Transmission shifts fine.If this was manual trans you would never notice a problem.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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Mark Very strange. Is it the same if shifted into reverse and low? How about when driven and then brought to a stop with the FOM in drive? Does it die then too? When you shift into gear does the engine twist on the engine mounts? Would this have anything to do with this problem? Can you observe the engine while someone else shifts it into drive? Time to think outside the box. Pete
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hello Pete! I actually have a topic on this problem going if you look back about 10 topics.Kind of got this one and that one merging.Thought I would ask a separate question regarding the resistor as I am checking out other possible solutions to my problem.It wont idle in drive,reverse,or when you come to a stop.I have to use gas and brake to keep it running.Really annoyed because until I can find the cause its not fun to drive.
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By crenwelge - 15 Years Ago
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I really doubt that its the resistor, but they are cheap and you might consider buying a new one for peach of mind. Most of the time they are dead or alive. However a broken winding can work until you hit a bump. The quick way to check them is to clip the 2 wires together and bypass the thing and see if that has any effect. You won't hurt your coil for a few minutes. I would strongly suspect that there is a vacuum leak somewhere when you put it in gear. I understand absolutely nothing about Fordos. All I have ever had behind a Y was a Borg Warner. Is there possibly something that pulls vacuum when you put it in gear? Or do you possibly have a PVC valve stuck open and the extra load of being in gear pushes it over the edge? I suppose you haven't mixed a load o matic distributor with a later carb or visa versa.
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By marvh - 15 Years Ago
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Mark:
Reading this thread on your problem you may have a low voltage problem or a bad grounding problem.
I see on the other thread you are using a late distributor with Accell conversion. Does the Accell conversion require a ballast resister. I am not familiar with the Accell kit. Pertronics with their own coil does not require a ballast resister. I would swap the distributor for a distributor with one that has a points set up to test if the problem is in that distributor or in the Accell setup. I have had the opposite happen on a Petronics setup where idle and starting was perfect until you increased RPM them terrible back firing and cross firing. Only way to run the engine was to pull three plug wires. This was on a 56 distributor.
Have you changed your key switch lately as they are known for problems. They usually shutdown an engine like you turned the key off then when you turn the key they will immediately start and run again for another few more lights. You could use a jumper wire and bypass the key switch from battery to coil to test this theory.
Does the stumbling and bad idle come on same time as your generator light comes on as that will indicate low voltage if problem is happening at same time as car is now not getting a charging voltage. Are the ground links clean and hooked at the back of the engine and front engine mount, ground cable from battery to engine clean of paint and tight, battery post end clean and not internally corroded. Does the Accell unit require a separate ground link. Bad ground links increase resistance throughout the system.
I seen a bad idle and stumbling on a Cougar some years back when found the coil wire was bad. It was black for over an inch.
Just some more ideas for the trouble shooting list.
marv
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hello Guys! OK I was at a swap meet today and picked up a new flamethrower coil which I have been wanting to try anyway.Eliminates the resistor altogether.Installed it and didnt really affect my problem.I have now set the timing at 8BTDC and hooked up the vacuum line to the nonported(fulltime) outlet on the carb.This advances the timing about 10 at startup and raise the idle speed.Marvh-the accell kit requires a ground wire(part of the harness supplied) which I have at a good ground.With the changes in timing and advance at idle and adjusting the idle speed on the carb it will run fairly well in drive(warmed up fully) enough that I can drive it.I am going to leave things as is and run the motor for awhile and hopefully as it breaks in the idle issue will improve.Run a couple of tankfuls of fresh gas through the carb.Marvs mention of the ignition switch is another thing to look at.After having checked out any possible problems that might cause damage to the new motor such as retarded cam gear or incorrect timing or low ignition voltage I feel I should just drive it and see if things improve as mileage accumulates.Other than the idle issue it seems like a successful rebuild(knock on wood).Great oil pressure(65psi at 50-60 30psi+ at idle) and lots of oil to the top end which is something I wanted to improve on with this rebuild.(I had the oil groove machined deeper to .032 thanks Marvh)'.No fluid leaks like coolant or oil.Starts within seconds of turning the key.No strange noises.Thanks for all the input from everyone.If I find there is something actually causing this idle issue I will post it.Might help someone else.
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By rick55 - 15 Years Ago
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According to the Accell instruction sheet, the Accell conversion requires the ballast resistor to be installed as they say on the instructions that the life of the unit will be compromised if 12 Volts is continually applied to the unit.
I see this post ties into your other post regarding idle in drive.
I know this may sound stupid, but most problems with our cars are ridiculously simple to fix.
With the KISS principle in mind, have you attached a dwell meter to the coil/distributor to check that you have the correct dwell as this is the easiest way to lose spark voltage, assuming that the coil is OK.
Another idea may be to replace the Accell unit with a set of points and condensor to see if that makes any difference.
I have been caught myself in the past, trying to fix idle and running issues, thinking it was valve timing, carb settings and a simple check of the dwell located the problem.
I hope this helps.
Regards
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hey Rick! The instruction sheet with the coil says remove the ballast resistor because these are internally resisted(as I read it).The accel instructions say keep the resistor UNLESS you use one of their recommended coils(as I understand the instructions).I did a search on the site for this particular question and found nothing.The Pertronix unit when used with their Flamethrower coil does not use a resistor.Does anyone else know which is correct when using the Accel unit?By the way I agree with your KISS thing.As far as checking dwell I dont think it can be done on a pointless ignition system like Pertronix or my Accel conversion-can it?Or did you mean if I switch it for points to try it?I actually still have my Loadomatic setup which I could swap in just to try it at idle in drive -see if it changes anything.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Mark - If the Accel instructions don't say exactly what the primary resistance of the coil must be - then check the spec's of the recommended coils. By comparing the resistance of the Accel parts with the MSD coil, you will soon see if the switching transistor can survive the current load. These units typically use a "power transistor" to ground the coil (replacing the points as a switch). The early Pertronix "ignitor" for instance needed at least 1.50 Ohms of coil primary resistance to provide a current limit - this Accel unit may not need that much protection but you propably can find out how much it does need. Later design units will tolerate a coil with less resistance - but they also incorporate a current limit that cuts back the "dwell" as the rpms drop - and increases it as the rpms rise.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Steve! Do you happen to know the resistance value of the stock Ford ballast?these Flamethrowers have built in value of 1.5 ohms. If that is close to Ford ballast value it should be fine with the accel unit.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Steve! In the Ford shop manual under coil specs it shows primary cuircuit resistance as 1.40-1.54 ohms.The resistor is shown as 1.30-1.40.I would take that to mean resistance is provided by the separate resistor.The Flamethrower has builtin resistance of 1.5 ohms.I dont think the additional resistor is needed.I think the requirement by Accel to use the resistor refers to using the stock coil.What do you think?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Mark - The resistance is summed..... so the 1.5 OHM coil primary plus the ballast resistor end up being near 3.0 OHMs total. If the electronic unit will handle total OHMs as low as 1.50 - go with that (no ballast resistor).
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Steve! I just submitted this question to the Accel Tech people.Should get a clear answer from them hopefully Monday.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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I got an answer back from Accel regarding the need for additional resistor.Because there is 1.5 ohm resistance in the coil an additional resistor is NOT required.
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By rick55 - 15 Years Ago
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Hey Rick! The instruction sheet with the coil says remove the ballast resistor because these are internally resisted(as I read it).The accel instructions say keep the resistor UNLESS you use one of their recommended coils(as I understand the instructions).I did a search on the site for this particular question and found nothing.The Pertronix unit when used with their Flamethrower coil does not use a resistor.Does anyone else know which is correct when using the Accel unit?By the way I agree with your KISS thing.As far as checking dwell I dont think it can be done on a pointless ignition system like Pertronix or my Accel conversion-can it?Or did you mean if I switch it for points to try it?I actually still have my Loadomatic setup which I could swap in just to try it at idle in drive -see if it changes anything.
It is hard with the solid state ignition systems to see what they are doing.
Have you got the ignition module wired correctly with the correct polarity of the coil?
Try putting your original dissy back or put a set of points in the converted dissy and get the dwell correct and then see how it goes.
By setting up the standard ignition system you will establish whether the module is faulty/ working correctly.
Make sure that your plugs are correctly gapped and lastly are you using the correct plug leads. The Accell instructions say not to use copper wound plug leads with the module. The resistive type plug leads fitted to late model cars do break down in time.
The way I was taught to check them is that if the total resistance of any plug wire ( when added to the resistance of the coil wire) exceeds 20Kohm (20,000 ohms) replace the leads.
As has been said earlier it does seem as if you have a weak spark or poor earth in the electrics.
I hope you get to the bottom of the problem soon.
It certainly takes the fun out of driving when they are not right,
Regards
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks Rick! I have the points and condenser and screws that were in the distributor before I converted it.The dizzy was a "new" rebuilt unit so the points etc are new unused.I am seriously thinking of putting it back and seeing if any difference.I just did a compression test today.Motor hot and choke and throttle wide open.3-4 compression strokes show 125-130 in ALL cylinders.Thats a fresh motor with 125 miles on it.I also reset the valves to .020 clearance cold.Now I can hear them at startup.Nothing has changed.Still refuses to idle in gear.I really doubt the problem is mechanical in the motor itself.Looking for something else.The wires are NOT solid core.They were new last year and total resistance is well under your suggestions.Appreciate your input.Will report when I do find the reason AND I WILL FIND IT!
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By rick55 - 15 Years Ago
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I am sure you will find it. You know the engine is good. The rings would not have done enough work yet to fully bed in. When you do find the problem you will feel a bit like the bloke with the apple falling on his head. EUREKA!! Regards
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks Rick. I did the compression just to verify that there was not something mechanically wrong with my assembly of the motor.One more tick on my checkoff list of possible reasons why it wont run properly.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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Mark: Somewhere you stated that the problem started before you rebuilt the engine. You need to look at things that were NOT changed during the rebuild.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hello John! I had a problem with it at the end of last summer.It started running rough at low speed in drive when stopped at a light for instance.Now wether I am still having the same problem or something different not sure.I am going to pull the distributor and put the points and cond. back in.See if that makes a difference.Trying to cover all possible suspects.I sent another question to the Accel techs asking if it was possible for the module to act up only in certain conditions.Havent heard back yet.Thanks for the info on checking timing gear orientation.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Still working on trying to get it idling properly in drive.I pulled the distributor and re-installed the points and condensor just to be sure the electronic ignition was not causing problem.No improvement.Re-installed the Accel kit.Replaced plugs with new ones just to be sure I dont have one that was misfiring.No better.Pulled the carb(again) and cleaned out air bleeds,idle ports etc with compressed air.Reset timing to 10 BTDC and used vacuum gauge to set idle mixture.Idles in neutral with about 18 vacuum.Put it in drive and drops to 14.Slight improvement in idle quality in drive I think.In order to get the idle speed high enough to (sort of) idle in drive the ported vacuum in the carb becomes fulltime vacuum.Not a great problem but before redoing motor it would run without speed being increased enough to uncover that port in carb.I think I can safely assume the ignition is not the problem and there are no vacuum leaks and mechanically the motor is right as far as timing gears done correctly etc.The carb is a 390 cfm Holley which was purchased as a rebuilt couple of years ago.I have installed 58 main jets(last year).The mix screws work properly and I have tightened all screws etc.I am not an expert on carbs.Is it possible that I need to go a bigger size main jet?What is the effect of increasing the jet size on the idle circuit of the carb or is there an effect?If I set the parking brake with the trans in drive, I can increse the idle speed(opening throttle by hand) a fair amount without the car moving forward .To me that means the torque converter is working correctly.Anyway,I think I am looking at something other than ignition or trans problem.Any input regarding my jetting question is appreciated.With about 125 miles on it the (old)plugs loooked light tan and definitely not rich.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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Mark Have you tried a test with 1, THE DIST VACUUM PLUGGED and 2, THE DIST VACUUM hooked up to full time manifold vacuum? I run my car on full time manifold vacuum and I think it is better than ported vacuum. And it is a easy thing to do. Pete
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hi Pete! I have tried it hooked up to fulltime vacuum.The timing advances by about 15 which I is a little more than I was expecting.Idle speed increases of course but its too high(too fast in neutral) unless I cut the idle speed back on the carb and then I am back to square one with poor idle in drive.What do you mean by test with advance plugged ?
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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Mark To plug the advance take a golf T or similar and plug the rubber hose from the vacuum source so no signal gets to the distributor, and no advance of the timing. If your connection is all metal then disconnect at the distributor and attach a plugged rubber hose. Pete
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hi Pete! I am unsure of what you are suggesting I test with advance plugged.Do you mean try it in drive with advance plugged so it only has initial advance?I have set the initial advance at 10BTDC with vacuum line off and plugged .
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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Mark - I think Pete is suggesting you try and see what the transition is like when you are running full mechanical advance - no vacuum at all. I was wondering what sort of spark curve you ended up with....if you have the initial at 10° BTDC - then where does it end up at "full" and how fast is the engine turning when you get there? Some of the distributors were set to have 3°-5° initial (factory setup) and 30° in the distributor (2x15°) - but the springs were so stiff the engine had to have 6000 rev's to get all of the advance in. That's only 33°-35° total (not quite enough) and way too much engine speed. If you bump the initial up to 10°-12° - the top number turns out to be a bit too high, but the rev's are still so high you won't ordinarily get there anyway. A faster curve will get you some earlier torque - which you seem to need.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hi Steve! I haven't anaylized the advance curve.The only real problem is it just will NOT idle smoothly in drive.In drive with anything out of idle is fine.The vacuum advance is working fine.I have run this with ported and straight manifold vacuum.Set the timing several times with the light.Advancing to 12 BTDc or back to 6 BTDC.Set it with a vacuum gauge. Idles in neutral with steady 18.No flicker or indication of anything abnormal as far as missing spark plug or open valves etc.No vacuum leaks.I have "choked" the motor which if it speeds up indicates a vaccum leak.Nothing changed.I have replaced the plugs.Nothing.I have twice removed the carb and reset float levels.Blown out all external passages.All air bleeds are clear.If I close off the air bleeds with fingers motor slows down.remove-motor picks up.Compression test shows good even vacuum.Replaced Accel ignition with points and then back to Accel kit because there was no improvement.Replaced the coil with high ouput unit AND reinstalled the resistor.If I put it in drive with parking brake on and raise the revs it keeps on running(think this means the torque convertor is OK)I am running out of items to check AND REALLY getting frustrated.In all other aspects it is fine.Almost forgot! I have rest the valve clearance twice.Once to .019 and then to .020.All it is now is noisier.Any thoughts at all?Thanks
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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Mark At this point you do need a tachometer to tell you the real RPM of your engine. Guessing will not be good enough to trouble -shoot your problem. And YES I do mean to disconnect ALL vacuum advance, set the idle and put it into drive. Even better if you have a tach hooked up. My 57 312 with aircooled FOM idles at 850 rpm in neutral and 600 rpm + or - in drive. I do have a mild cam and about 16 inch of MANIFOLD vacuum in neutral. Another thought is to put the rear end into the air with axle stands and test in drive to see if the converter and or fwd clutch is dragging. Pete
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks Pete! I'll give that a try tommorow.Let you know what happens.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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Hi Pete! I tried your suggestion of putting it up on stands and running it.Put it in drive-starts to run rough.Leave my foot off the brake and go right into drive.It starts to run rough and takes a 3-4 seconds to get the tranny turning before it smooths out.At basically 500 RPM(idle in drive) the torque converter should not even be turning the transmission at all?In other words there should be little pressure against motor RPM in the converter?It seems to be engaged and turning transmission right off the bat.If I continue to raise speed with brake released it clears right up.Stop the rear wheels from turning with the brake and it immediatley runs rough.Am I possibly on the right track here?I do not have access to an accurate tach so I am going on experience as to RPM.Just wanted to mention that the front band was checked when I had the pan off last spring and adjustment was correct.Just rechecked rear band today and it is correctly adjusted.
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By ejstith - 15 Years Ago
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Hey Mark why don't you go to Autozone and get a SunPro tach? They look good and work well enough and not very expensive and are period correct .. lol.
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By oldcarmark - 15 Years Ago
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I am looking around for one of the " ëngine anylizer" units with the dwell tach meters.
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