Car is a 56 sunliner.  Restored about 10 years ago.

Yesterday drove the car to work, then to lunch, all was fine.  Got back in the car after lunch, and it started right up just fine.  I heard a faint whirring sound, but I figured it was the scrub vette I was parked next to, so I just drove away.  About 4 miles into the trip, still heard whirring, and started to smell a faint burning electric smell.  I chalked the smell up to the scrub suburban next to me at the light (yes, I typically live in denial - makes me happier).

Got back to work, and went to shut car off, and it would not stop.  By now the wirring was louder, and the smell was much stronger.  Opened the hood, and the starter was smoking.  Turns out the starter never shut off.  I quickly disconnected the neg batt cable, and it stopped.  I tried touching the cable to the battery and the starter tried to turn over (key out of car) so I unhooked it again.  Made sure no fire, and called AAA. 

Car was flatbedded home a few hours later, carefully unloaded, and when i reconnected the battery, the starter didnt try to turn over.  Tried the key, and it tries to crank, but the starter is obviously cooked, so it cant really do much.

Car has - new battery, new alternator (GM 1 wire, properly connected), new starter solenoid, and replaced the ignistion switch about 4 years ago.  So what the H*ll is the problem?  All wiring appears to be in good shape (all new harnesses 10 years ago with frame off)

At first, I thought maybe the neutral safety switch (its a F/M), but no part of that is energized with key off.  Where should I look next??

Also, Im trying to get the old starter out.  I remember putting it together with the body off and thinking "man, what a pain this would be with the body on...hope I never have to do that....."  rats.   So the first question I have on that is how do I access the top most bolt?  Is it from the engine compartment side, or from the transmission side (accessed through hole in floor after pulling up carpet?)  Any tricks to get to the top bolt?  Car is on jack stands, as i dont have access to a lift.  Tricks?  HELP!!!!!

As much as i love this forum, I really wish someone who knew what they were doing lived close!

Thanks in advance for any and all help!!

The top starter bolt is oriented the same as the other two.  I use a short 3/8 drive 1/2" socket, a 6 inch extension, and a ratchet.  Getting the socket on the head of the bolt is done by the braille method, you really can't see what you're doing.

Sounds like a starter solenoid problem to begin with.  If it was ignition switch related, putting the car in gear would have interrupted the circuit.

John, did you mean that the neutral switch would have interrupted it while putting it in gear, and not the ign switch?  Just asking, because I cant see how putting in gear would indicate the ign switch?

Yes, the solenoid is about a week old.  I replaced it because I had a similar issue, but stopped it prior to starter damage.  Thats what makes me think it isnt the solenoid again.

And yes, Ive debated switching to a different starter.  Im on the fence, since we show the car a lot, and have worked hard at keeping it stock, etc.....plus, I kind of like the sound of it (hows that for a stupid reason??!)... But MAN does that gear reduction unit look COOL....

Sounds like it could be ignition switch not completley returning to ign circuit after starting? particularly if you have replaced solenoid because of same problem earlier? Once the starter bolts are removed slide it forward and roll onto tie rod arm and lower control arm, then jiggle it out , remembering to pinch finger tips doing this.

It is how the starter gets power.

If the neutral switch is working properly, ie you can only turn the engine over when in neutral the switch is OK. The solenoids are prone to sticking and if it did it would continue to provide power to the starter until you remove the battery lead or the starter wires.

Once the car is put in gear the neutral switch opens the circuit to the solenoid and it should stop turning.

I usually use the longest 3/8 extension bar I have with a 1/2" socket and slide it alongside the block from the front of the car, behind the engine mount until it contacts the nut and just remove. Leave one of the bottom bolts on the starter so that it does not cause the starter to drop while you are undoing it. A great job to do.

As Bill says, watch those knuckles.

Regards

The starter is cooked.  Rear bushing is destroyed, shaft is galled, end plate is burned & distorted.  Looks like the windings are cooked too.

Oddly the bendix seems fine.  I spun it up with a model airplane starter to retract it, and is moves freely. However, Im not sure if it was extended because it stuck that way while running or if I twisted it taking out the starter.  Either way, Ill probably replace it anyways if i go with the OE starter.

One question, just because IM an idiot; I do know that an electric motor can generate a current if its spun up.  It isnt possible that if the bendix got stuck and the starter motor was spinning at a few thousand revs that it would throw off enough current to power the ignition system through the coil terminal of the starter solenoid, is it?  I cant imagine it could, but I figured Id throw it out...and yes, im grasping at straws....only because its been an itermittent problem with a 3-4 year old solenoid and now one thats only a week old....

On a side note, I pulled off the pwr strg hoses to replace the one the tow truck driver broke, and only once apart realized that Tee-Bird prods sent me the wrong pressure line......AAARRRGGGHHHHH

Grounds are good.  I have the ground cable from neg terminal to block, and the strap from body to block, both in good, clean, tight condition.

Thanks!

**EDIT** NEver mind about the starter acting as a generator theory; if that were the case, the engine wouldnt have kept running when i disconnected the battery, and the starter wouldnt have engaged as soon as i reconnected the battery cable.....

The original solenoids would last for many years but I doubt that the new one you bought was made in the US.

My 86 Ranger had the solenoid stick when it was only 2 years old. The starter was smoking by the time I got the battery disconnected.

The replacement solenoid from Ford was still working 15 years later.

While on the subject of solenoids, any guys trying an EFI set-up should replace their starter solenoid with a 1986 or later style. These have an internal diode to bleed off the spike caused by the collapsing field of the relay coil when the the key is turned from start to on. The spike was killing the car's computers. Cannondale ATV's had the same problem years later.

As Kenneth said, lots of y blocks ran around with only two

screws holding the starter, but don't do it. They are prone

to loosen over time.

Bottom line is that im trying to find some way to ferret out if this is a component failure or a problem with the wiring harness.  Im really hoping that its not a wiring problem, as I really dont want to have to try to dissect the wiring harness to find an intermittent fault.   But on the other hand, i cant really rationalize what would have caused a 2 week old solenoid to go out, especially since I put in the new solenoid for the same reason (starter intermittently would keep running....)

Im just really really frustrated right now, as im sure many of you can relate to.  The car has historically been really reliable, but my 3 year old son loves driving in it, and im not sure how much we will do of that if I cant trust it.....plus the car is comitted to be featured in some local car shows (like main stage/bandstand type stuff) and I really dont want to disappoint the organizers who are counting on us.

Ron

It is a new GM 1 wire with an internal regulator; the factory regulator is isolated/not on the grid anymore.  That setup has worked fine for the last 9-10 years that the car was on the road.

Wiring rarely goes bad in the middle of the harness unless it has gotten pinched or hot enough to melt the insulation.

My thought right now, because they are cheap parts and easy to get to, is to replace the ign sw & the solenoid (along with the starter, which is NOT such a cheap part.....sigh).  If it happens again, it would almost certainly have to be a wiring issue, and at this point all the wiring seems/looks to be ok.  If it is a wiring issue, using your trick but only pulling 1 of the solenoid wires at a time would help trace what circuit has the fault, methinks.

Thanks again to everyone for the help/insight.  Now im just waiting on the UPS truck!