tailpipe size


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By 55Birdman - 18 Years Ago
I am installing a set of Sanderson headers on my bird.the collectors are 2 inch outlet . should i change the whole exhaust system to 2 inch or use a reducer to fit the stock pipes. thanks for the helpSmile  55birdman
By pcmenten - 18 Years Ago
Wow. Your Thunderbird looks just like a Sunbeam Tiger I used to have. Pretty cool.



I'd suggest that you not use 2" pipes if you want maximum power because they're too big. I'll try to remember to do a web search for the formula for pipe size, but I'm thinking that 1 7/8" would be better. Of course, you'd want a crossover and mismatched mufflers, too.



The mismatched mufflers will prevent the system from droning when you hit a certain RPM. I won/lost an argument with a muffler shop about this. They wanted to put exact match mufflers on it and when I asked for mismatched mufflers I got an argument. I finally prevailed on the mufflers but they got the last laugh when they jacked the price of the system. But at least my exhaust system doesn't drone.



Needless to say that I won't be going back to Boise Muffler.



If you're thinking that 1 7/8" is nearly the same as 2" here's the math;



area of 2" pipe = 3.142 square inches

area of 1 7/8" pipe = 2.761 sq/in



The 2" pipe is 14% bigger than the 1 7/8" pipe. It's not intuitive that a 2" pipe that is a 1/8" bigger diameter than a 1 7/8" diameter pipe, or 6%, has a 14% bigger area.



Try this link;



http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/header-tech-c.htm



Looks like a 1 3/4" might be even better.



By the way, the 'mismatch' between the collector size and the exhaust pipe size can actually be good for power.
By 55Birdman - 18 Years Ago
what do you mean by mismatched mufflers? I am not sure . thanksSmile 55birdman
By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
55

       Being a "Hot Rodder" I'd vote for the larger diameter and let it drone. What good is a quiet Y Block anyhow. We've been quiet for too long now.w00t

                                

By 55Birdman - 18 Years Ago
here here!!!!!!! HIP HIP HORRAY BigGrin
By speedpro56 - 18 Years Ago
I preferr the larger just for the sake of the engine breathing better, even too the point of going to 2 1/4 inch because by the time they put all the bends in the pipe you're bascially back down to 2 inch anyway from the way the bends are crimped.If they can mandrel bend then 2 in would be fine. Since the tailpipes on my 56 t-bird were made in a regular muffler shop I went to 2 1/5 inch pipes to come out with 2 1/4 inch over all.
By charliemccraney - 18 Years Ago
I think 2" will be ok.  I think that's what I had on the truck with the rams horn manifolds on the old engine.  I don't know how your gearing is.  Mine is a 3.70 by the VIN plate but the tag on the rear drive looks like is says 3.89 - it's hard to tell, the tag's been smashed.  The old engine had a few goodies but it wasn't spectacular.

If the engine's stock, keep it smaller.  If you've done some work to it or plan to do some work to it, go a little larger.  Consider that if you go a little larger now, future modifications will be less likely to be restricted by the exhaust system.

I now have a 2 1/2" system with an X crossover with the new engine and the torque is great.  They seem to work well with the combination.  It is loud when I get on it.  I'll be trying some Hooker Aeroflows to quiet it down some.  The glass packs sound nice but I know that I'll be seeing the blue lights if I leave them on.  Plus I plan to start driving it regularly again and I don't want to annoy the neighbors.

By PF Arcand - 18 Years Ago
I've noted references to exhaust crossovers before on this site. I have a question about it. I was under the impression that they aren't really all that beneficial on a Y-Block (or a Flat head, for that matter) because neither engine uses what I'll call the "Chebie" firing order. Can someone enlighten me on the subject?     
By GREENBIRD56 - 18 Years Ago
There are very basic studies that have been run (pressure gauges in the exhaust tubing) that show that both crossover pipes and "X" pipes (like Charlie's new outfit seen elsewhere) reduce total back pressure in cars with mufflers (outlet restriction). We are not talking about individually tubed extractors, firing orders or exotica here - gas pressure only. At relatively low RPM, engines like low back pressure - engines with narrow lobe centers and large overlap numbers have problems with reversion in closed, muffled systems. 
By 46yblock - 18 Years Ago
PCmenton,

The referenced site deals with header design.  How do you apply it to tailpipe diameter?   I'm trying to optimize tailpipe diameter for low rpm torque and am interested, and have been thinking about 1 7/8 inch also.  Currently the pipes are 1 3/4.  Your idea of mismatched mufflers is interesting.  Had not heard that before but it makes some sense.  The glasspacks on my truck side exit 1 foot behind my cab, and at a certain constant rpm on the interstate the sound gets doubly loud.

Mike

By GREENBIRD56 - 18 Years Ago
Seems to me like four tube header designs - where they are looking for max power, tuned rpm bands, etc. - have some theoretical and practical formulas that "work". The motorcycle, F-1 and NASCAR engine designers and tuners have been tweaking this stuff for years. Usually these vehicles don't have mufflers or "tailpipes" as such. 

Guys that wanted torque band improvements in street cars have tended toward small tube "Tri-Y" designs and I've seen some dyno proofs that show that approach works too. But after the exhaust comes out of the header - low back pressure rules - how much noise can you tolerate for how low a pressure.

The most interesting example I can remember was a big block Cuda with some funny little caps over the "boom tubes" sticking out the back. The caps had holes about 1-1/8 ...1-1/4 diameter, clipped on with a single bolt - and made the nasty big block much more tolerable for the drive-in circuit (and soon disappeared when the money came out). There is a street exhaust system sold for my daily driver Camaro (by SLP) that actually gets tuned for sound by inserting washers in the tailpipe joint - its just a matter of what you are willing to trade ... noise or backpressure.

The exhaust crossovers and "X" pipes are both devices that have been invented to aid the mufflers and quell noise while keeping down the backpressure. The "X" pipe seems to work well on my big block Olds - but I don't have any frame of reference - didn't try anything else on the way. There is a young man that hangs out at a shop I frequent that put one (an "X") on his late model Mustang - and hates it because of a particular reasonant frequency on the freeway. My hearing isn't that sensitive and it didn't sound that bad to me.

By pcmenten - 18 Years Ago
Re; header size and exhaust pipe size; when I read down on that forum the same question was asked and the answer was that the same formula applies to headers and exhaust pipes.



The mismatched muffler was something that I first became aware of after I bought my 86 Mustang GT. Ford put different sized mufflers on the dual exhaust system to avoid the droning. Apparently mufflers resonate, and if you have matched mufflers, they'll resonate with each other, hence the drone. I have one muffler slightly smaller than the other. No drone at all.



Regarding 'backpressure' and performance; I don't think that many exhaust systems present much backpressure. It's not at all like the intake where you have atmospheric pressure, about 14 psi, to push air into the engine. I think that the residual pressure in the cylinders pushing the exhaust gas out is rather high, hundreds of psi. I think that's why exhaust ports are smaller than intake ports; it doesn't require much to get the exhaust gasses out because they're under so much pressure. Rather, I think the intent is to 'tune' the exhaust system so that the inertia of the exhaust blow-down helps evacuate the cylinder. If your pipes are too big, the timing of the exhaust pulse will be off and you'll end up with residual exhaust gas. It doesn't hurt the engine. In fact it works as EGR when you put pipes on the engine that are too big. But if you really want more power, you have to find the right size. Too big is less performance.
By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
X pipes work. With 2½ inch pipes all the way to the rear of the red car and an X pipe in front of the mufflers, the car runs faster than it does with the caps off ahead of the crossover. A cross over or an X pipe will help ANY V motor.  It gives each pulse twice the area of muffler to absorb the pulse, Also will take the edge off the noise.  Smaller pipes are quieter, and will not help torque.  They have very little effect on a motor unless they're too small. you guys can figure areas until your chrome tips turn blue, but every time I try larger than the so-called formulas, and I've read a bunch of them, the et goes down and the mph gets higher, so does the noise.  The only place you can really tell a difference is in the primary header size or in the collector size, length.

     46, aim the pipes back away from the cab, helps a ton.w00t pc, it's more the length of the primaries that affects the "Timing "of the negative wave, and you lose that when the rpm changes. size affects gas velocity, has very little to do with the wave timing.

By GREENBIRD56 - 18 Years Ago
Seems to me that the limitation to making the tailpipes bigger  - (aside from getting them to fit in the space allowed) is when the car starts slowing down from all of pipe on board.

Using a 90° turn-down at the outlet helps - and I once saw a couple of big washers welded onto the side of the muffler cans to stiffen the tin and ease some of the "ting ting ting" stuff..................

By Tom Compton - 18 Years Ago
I've heard the theory all most 50 years that engines "need" back pressure.  My simpleton way of looking at things says the dragsters have much more cross sectional area per cubic inch.  If they could get more troque or HP by restricting the exhaust flow yu would see one inch or smaller stacks.

In my opinion, bigger is better as long as it fits.  That's why we ran dumps in the 60's.  Honest officer I don't know why those things are behind my front wheels, the car was like that when I bought it.

TC

By Ted - 18 Years Ago
PF Arcand (6/8/2007)
I've noted references to exhaust crossovers before on this site. I have a question about it. I was under the impression that they aren't really all that beneficial on a Y-Block (or a Flat head, for that matter) because neither engine uses what I'll call the "Chebie" firing order. Can someone enlighten me on the subject?

Regardless of the firing order on an American V8, there will inherently be two cylinders on each bank that fires consecutively with each other.  As a result there is a high pressure wave created in each tailpipe that can be reduced by installing a crossover or X-pipe that’s the same size as the exhaust system.  When installing one of these in the exhaust, it’s typically recommended that it's done as close as possible to the engine for the most advantage.  The further downstream it’s placed, the less effective it becomes.

 

Some of the older 180° header designs actually took two tubes from each bank and criss-crossed them under the engine so that a true 180° firing took place within the collectors to eliminate the same intermittent high pressure pulse within the collector.  Headers built on this particular design can actually use a collector size that’s much smaller as a result.  Most vehicle chassis layouts do not accommodate this so you don’t hear much about it today but this particular style of header would not see as much advantage from the use of an X-pipe by lieu of not having to balance out a non-existent intermittent higher pressure wave.

 

Just all food for thought and an excellent thread.

By DANIEL TINDER - 18 Years Ago
Concerning the benefit of dual exhausts with X-pipes:

I remember when Harley introduced the interconnected EVO exhaust, the factory warned that installing straight pipes with no X connection would cancel out most of the expected power gain. I assumed back then that the connection was really for noise control, and they were just trying to discourage exhaust modification and avoid the bad PR associated with loud pipes.

But now, since the power benefit of the X is proven, I wonder if any data is available re: the effect on back-pressure of the Y-block's intake manifold heat riser passage? I DO know that blocking the gasket holes will change the exhaust tone, but now I wonder if there is any power lost just by eliminating the interconnection (disregarding the obvious gain from lowering the intake/charge temp)?
By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
Daniel/ Ted,

          You got it, Harley did too. Ever notice the XR's ran a 2 into one into 2 setup?

     The flattrack bikes after about 1970, (Aluminum XR's) made more torque that way, came of the corners harder. Guys tried to duplicate the older drag pipe style and managed to slow the bikes down. Went back to the factory setup immediately. The only form of racing that does not use some type of collector style exhaust to promote cylinder ehaust extraction by the engines firing order is the fuel cars. With 6000 hp and close to that in torque, I guess they feel they don't need a lot more low end! 

 The X pipe or crossover steup has it's greatest benefit on the bottom end thru midrange, with mufflers. It reduces the peak pressure of the pulses by splitting them between two mufflers. Works. 

By 55Birdman - 18 Years Ago
I really appreciate all the input .But all I wanted to know was should i change my exhaust system from stock to a larger one when i install my headers. Unsure 55birdman
By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
55,

            See, you heard more than you really wanted to know. This is the problem of dealing with a bunch of old "know it alls" with too much time on their hands. Author included. Sorry, im sure you'll be totally happy with the 2" and glass packs, should sound neater tha H...!

w00t

By 55Birdman - 18 Years Ago
No need to apologize.sometimes too much information is enough information.  going with the " and a pair of smithys. Drone on! BigGrin  55birdman

maybe next time I should ask a technical question. Thanks to everyone who participated.

By charliemccraney - 18 Years Ago
It may not be as bad as you think.  I've always had the drone at idle.  It goes away after about 1000RPM.  After that it's just loud.  I've had h-pipe, x-pipe, and 2 into 1 exhaust, three different engine setups, and two styles of muffler.  Each one had the drone at idle, some worse than others.  I don't know if that is some statistical anomaly but that has been my experience.  I've tried glass pack and turbo style mufflers.  Glass packs have had the least annoying drone while being louder overall.  Turbo mufflers have had the most annoying drone but are much quieter overall.  I like the sound of the glass pack much more.
By Pete's Panel - 18 Years Ago
Just to throw a spanner in the works, a single 3" pipe has a bigger cross section area than 2x2" dual set up
By pegleg - 18 Years Ago
Charlie,

          Might be a resonance in your tailpipes, maybe some thing silly like an extra bend or longer pipe will stop it.Wink Also the higher end mufflers, like a three chamber Flowmaster or the Edelbrocks are a little better. But not perfect, My Flowmasters drone big time at 2000. 2 1/2" tailpipes and mufflers don't help. Better than the Pro street Ranger I have with 3" turn outs in front of the rear wheels and a 408 Windsor though.

By charliemccraney - 18 Years Ago
The one thing that all of the exhaust systems have in common is they dumped somewhere between the back of the cab and the axle.

The Hooker AeroChamber mufflers that I installed a few weeks ago are not so bad. They have developed a very thundery sound at idle. They won't get me in trouble for sound violations. I do miss the glass packs though. I have it set up so that I can swap them out in about an hour, should the need arise.
By Outlaw56 - 16 Years Ago
I have read all the information and have decided I am going to try flowmaster 50 series Delta Flow for rumble outside and quiet inside,  2" inch inlet/outlet with 2" exhaust and tailpipes connected to Mummerts ram horns on my 292. I get the feeling everyone participating in the subject has tried different combinations with success. I guess bottom line is, "I never met a Yblock I did not like the sound of".

Outlaw 56 F-100

By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
Birdman: You have been inundated with info, some that you didn't really want. However, no one asked what primary size your Sanderson Headers are?