By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Dilema: I had my 272 rebuilt 3 years ago. I didn't know much about head combinations, exhaust, etc all I knew was I wanted a Y-block for my truck. I ended up going with a 272 .030 over, 61 small valve heads, stock exhaust, 2 barrel, stock cam. Result has been negative. No power on hills. Disappointing. I am toying with 2 solutions: 1# Keep the 272 in the truck and add G-heads with high ratio rockers, Sanderson headers, Mummert intake with 4 barrel, stock steel shim head gasket (deck was not shaved, now has a thicker composite gasket). Approximate cost 1500.00 #2. Abandon the 272, rebuild 292, G-heads, sanderson headers, Mummert intake, 4 barrel. Cost around $3000. Question: Would it be worth the $1500 to upgrade the 272 or just forget it and rebuild the 292? I have spent $2500 so far on the 272 and don't know if it is worth another $1500 for the returns I will get. Appreciate your help.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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The first thing I would do is tune it the best I can.
Modern 4 bolt 2 barrel or older 3 bolt 2 barrel? Matching distributor? A 4 bolt 2 barrel needs the '57 and up distributor. Tuning the advance curve can help a lot.
An increase in compression will not hurt. Cutting the deck and G heads should provide a substantial increase in compression and still allow the use of regular fuel. Even if it turns out you have to go up a grade, I bet that the increase in efficiency will more than make up for it. Roller rockers and any of the new aluminum intakes aren't necessary purchases and may actually make the problem worse.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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It is a 4 bolt 2 barrel with a vacumn/centrifugal distributor. I have tweaked it as much as I can for advance. I am just wondering if the additional money in the engine would be worth the gains?
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By Oldmics - 15 Years Ago
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If you look at your list,the common denominator is replacing the heads,rockers,carb,intake,headers. If the 272 is fresh I personally would go that route.All of those parts can be used again if you decide to move up to the 292. I also suggest that you rid yourself of that vaccum only distributor and get the 57 centrifical advance unit. That alone would wake the engine up. Oldmics
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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With a stock cammed 272, no I don't think it is worth the money for the intake. I don't think roller rockers will hurt you as far as performance goes but the benefit will be minimal for the cost. Oh, I just realized I read what wasn't there. High ratio rockers aren't as expensive as rollers and may be worthwhile, assuming you don't already have them.
However, since both of your options include G heads, go ahead and have them done and swap them onto the 272. They should enhance your torque. If it improves the situation enough, then there's no need to spend additional money. If it doesn't, then continue with the 292. I would also consider a hotter cam if you choose to redo the 292, or even if you choose to rework the 272.
You also said you have stock exhaust. Upgrade to duals. That will help, too.
So here's the order I would go, rework the G heads, see what that does. If not enough, upgrade the exhaust. If it's still not enough, build the 292 and everything you've done up to now will bolt right on. This way you reduce the risk of spending far more than you intended to achieve your goal.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Those are great ideas!! I will probably start with the G-heads. Should I look into exhaust port matching or just leave it stock? I would have to send it out or try some hand porting.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I wouldn't worry much about porting at this time, especially if you have to send it out.
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By Ol'ford nut - 15 Years Ago
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You never mention what transmission or rear end ratio you are using. The wrong gear in the rear end can hurt you bad, especially when you talking torque going up hills. Also are you pulling anything or just driving along? PS- I don't think anyone on the site will think going to the original steel head gasket is a good idea.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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Another suggestion. First add true dual exhaust to your truck, not hedders. At this point stock dual exhaust is PLENTY. Keep the heads for now and add a 4BBL intake and small 4BBL carb with vacuum secondaries. Before replacing the heads consider what RPM your truck operates in under normal conditions. If you never see 4500 PLUS RPM your heads are ok. Consider milling the heads as much as possible. Higher compression is the best bang for the buck. What is the compression reading of your engine? Do you have a standard transmissin and what rear gear ratio? Are you doing the work yourself or paying to have it done?
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By speedpro56 - 15 Years Ago
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The 272 should perform very well with the upgrades mentioned, I would really consider upgrading the stock cam to at least a 224 @ .050 with a running duration of 270 to work with the other upgrades and give you a better seat of the pants feel. Once finished I believe you will be glad you did.
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By NoShortcuts - 15 Years Ago
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You indicated that you didn't have any power on hills..
Charlie started out by saying check the basics. I agree completely. Do a compression check on each engine cylinder. Do a full check of engine vacuum readings, not just at idle. This is old school stuff, but can quickly show root problems like rings that aren't sealing, leaking valves, a vacuum leak, malfunctioning valve springs, sticking valves, or a bad valve.
You indicated that you have a distributor with centrifugal and vacuum advance. Find someone with a distributor machine to check the centrifugal and vacuum advance operation. NOTE: this is becoming a lost art. The centrifugal advance curve can easily be adjusted; some vacuum advance diaphragms can be adjusted also. IF you had the distributor apart, accidentally switched the spring to weight combination or changed the posts the springs were attached to, it could have significantly changed the ignition advance curve. Ignition advance curve operation is critical to sharp performance in stop and go street/ road vehicles.
Engine ignition timing: After checking the ignition point dwell angle, be sure to set the engine ignition timing at the correct idle speed and with the vacuum advance disconnected and the vacuum hose plugged.
Have you had the carburetor apart? IF the float level is incorrect it will affect the operation of the high speed circuit. Is the accelerator pump functioning properly? -Engine off, with the choke held open, look down the air horn, move the throttle lever; is gas being squirted from the get-go? Is there an accelerator pump linkage adjustment on your carburetor? Is the rod in the correct hole(s)?
Ol'ford nut makes a good point regarding rear end gears. They can make a real difference in how the truck acts going up a hill.
If all of the above 'sorting-out' has been done and you're still not happy with the performance, I agree with those who suggest using the '56, '57 1.54 rockerarms if you don't already have them, and a full dual exhaust system (not headers). Using the 'G' heads will raise the compression ratio and make a significant difference in the engine's performance. Don't worry about porting the heads for your intended use.
I would not 'invest' in aftermarket exhaust headers, an aftermarket intake manifold, or an aftermarket camshaft for the 272 displacement. Notice that I also have not suggested putting a stock large-carburetor-base ('57 type) 4 barrel intake on the engine. -If you do, use a 4 barrel of less than 500 cfm. You'll like the throttle response for street and highway use. OPINION: there's nothing wrong with a good 4 bolt 2 barrel on this engine.
Some will say that there's no substitute for cubic inches, but your 272 will put a smile on your face if the ignition, carb, and rear end gears are 'right'. The 'G' heads, dual exhaust, and 1:54 rockerarms will suffice to juice it up and won't cost you a lot to do.
Before I spent the money on building another engine (292), I'd consider putting a 4 speed or T-5z behind the 272. I think you'd find it to be a totally different ride.
Regards,
NoShotcuts
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks for the replies. I have a 60 ford 3.4 ton 4x4 with 4.56 dana 60 and a T-98 4 speed. I had planned to pull a small trailer in the summer for camping. When the 272 was finished 2 years ago, all of the things you all mentioned were checked, vacumn, rebuilt autolite manual choke carb, checked advance, spark, timing, dwell..... I know the mechanic checked the compression but I don't remember what it was. I am going to check it before I tear the heads off. I also think the compression height of the replacement pistons were shorter but don't know how much. I have resigned to the fact that I put on the wrong heads for this engine. These are good points you all mentioned and I might recheck them before I take the heads off. Question: Why put on dual exhaust system and not use aftermarket headers? I had thought maybe putting on the Sanderson truck headers or for a stock look the Ram horns. Wouldn't the headers flow better than stock exhaust decreasing resistance?
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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I would do headers or rams horns for a more symmetric look. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether they are better or not at this time. We will have a better idea soon.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 15 Years Ago
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OK you wrote "Question: Why put on dual exhaust system and not use aftermarket headers? I had thought maybe putting on the Sanderson truck headers or for a stock look the Ram horns. Wouldn't the headers flow better than stock exhaust decreasing resistance?" Headers are for high RPM high performance RACE engines not for 3/4 4X4 trucks that will tow a small trailer. You will have to be more realistic as to what you are trying to do here. A Ford 272 will never set any land speed records or win any drag strip races. IT WILL produce GOOD low and medium RPM torque which is what YOU NEED. Forget G heads, high lift rockers, race cams, Sanderson headers, ETC they will cost a lot and will do nothing that you want to do. Raise your engine compression ( try to find ECZ A, or B or C heads with SMALL VALVES) and DUAL EXHAUST. You NEED low RPM TORQUE not screaming RPM HP. As I said, you need to get real. A good running 272 will be an OK motor but will NEVER set the world on fire. And if you are not able to do the work yourself then consider a rebuilt or used 292 as a more cost effective way to go.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Pete, the reason for G heads is not so much for the flow as it is for the compression. Just by swapping those, a gain of about .7 will be acquired, no milling required. That will help it across the rpm range and should more than counter the effects of the larger valve at lower RPM. Remember, 272 trucks in '57 came with G heads. Headers are also a good choice for enhancing low end torque, when chosen properly. So far, from the testing we've seen, the Sanderson truck shorties look like an excellent choice for the street.
In one recently posted test, the big EMC headers did better than rams horns. It is a warmer 272 but nothing unrealistic for street use. If idaho wanted to copy that engine, he can easily.
http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic51408-3-1.aspx?Highlight=exhaust+testing
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By GREENBIRD56 - 15 Years Ago
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I don't know where in Idaho we are talking about - but when I lived in Casper, Wyoming the back of my lot was at 6008 ft. Normally asperated engines are derated (just like air compressors) about 3% per thousand feet - so in the driveway, my toys were already down 18% - when they were in perfect tune......... To hook on a trailer and go camping in the mountains, my F-150 4x4 spent much time on poor roads at high elevation in low range of the transfer case. And it had a 351 - about 80 cubic inches more displacement. Its gonna be hard to overcome the altitude factor without increasing the displacement.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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High altitude? I have the cure. You need a blower.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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I am in Lewiston/Clarkston on the WA/ID border and elevation is only 700 ft but anyway out is up. I am kind of leaning towards the G-head replacement first. I didn't really want to take the engine out of the truck so I was hesitant in changing the stock cam. What do you all think?
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By Oldmics - 15 Years Ago
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Are you considering a camshaft change? I think your original path is the best way to persue. Oldmics
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By PF Arcand - 15 Years Ago
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I'm with Old Ford Nut. You're getting a lot of recommendations based on minimum information. What model is the truck? 1/2 ton? What gearing? How much power on hills isn't enough? Do you use the truck for heavy hauling? You need to be more specific...
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By PF Arcand - 15 Years Ago
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Ignore my comments & questions. everybody jumped in just before me & I didn't check again before sending my post.. sorry
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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I will just start with the G- heads. A have a set I am going to have checked out and I will keep you informed. Thanks again for all of your input.
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By Dan in Seattle - 15 Years Ago
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I'm probably the newest of the noobs to this site and hope I don't step on someones toes here but this p/u power issue caught my eye. I hope this isn't a power perception problem. I used my brothers 57 F250 for several years on my construction sites. I have a tare slip showing a net 2,249lb load of gravel on a recent job. I put this truck at the bottom of the site and hollered to the crew to watch, I put the truck in 1rst, got it going and stepped out of the cab and walked along side as it idled up the very steep road grade. This is just a properly rebuilt dead stock 57 F250 292, truck 4 speed. Will it pull a 7K boat over Stevens pass at 90 mph, no, but it will pull the hill.
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By Y block Billy - 15 Years Ago
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I agree with BMDC, That 272 should have all the low end torque you need, I have an F500 with a 272 and I am not looking for gears up hill. The Y's are known to just lug up a hill in high gear with just a crack of the throttle. Do you have anything else dragging to slow you down, a dragging brake, bad bearing somewhere, its little items like this that will rob your power most when going up hill but you may never feel them on level ground. You also say you advanced the timing as far as you can, too much advance will show up mostly on hills and a loss of power will result.
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By Dan in Seattle - 15 Years Ago
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If his engine has compression and is properly tuned, in stock setup it may make 140/150Hp and 200-220#tq at the tires but his 4 wheel drive truck may weigh near 5K# with him in it so he may be expecting too much. My 57 F100 shorty weighs 3650 with me and my built 292 4 bbl/T85OD/4:11 posi in it and it'll tear yer head off.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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I checked anything that would drag and couldn't find anything. It accelerates great on the straight away but put it under a load and it slows right down. I think total timing, vacumn and centrifugal was in 30's max. I would have too look again where I wrote them down to make sure though. I have a stock 58 3/4 ton with a Napco add on axle with a 272 with G heads and I am redoing the brakes then I want to drive it around. I would like to see how it performs and compare. I went to the machine shop yesterday and will take the G-heads down to get cleaned and checked out next week to see if they are usable. The blocks look good, and are 1 inch thick so I don't think they have been machined down.
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By Dan in Seattle - 15 Years Ago
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Whoa there, you mean it actually loses power? I'd suggest not spending any more money until you nail this down. The very first thing I'd do is make very certain you have a working mech advance distributor, then make sure the carb works correctly, set everything including timing to stock settings. Don't trust the timing marks either, carefully rotate to #1 TDC and prove the mark.
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By MoonShadow - 15 Years Ago
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How about fuel delivery? You may have a blockage the is small and only affects the engine when under a load. What if you run fairly hard through the gears on a flat surface? If it slows then the problem could be in the fuel system. My 56 with a high performance FE pump and a McCullouch supercharger would run out of fuel at high RPM in second gear. I had to put an electric pump on it to keep up. Not saying you need an electric pump, just that fuel can also cause the loss of power feeling. I've even seen rubber fuel lines with a tear in them that acted like a flapper valve when demand increased. It would pull shut and block the fuel flow. Try putting a temporary fuel pressure gauge on and run it where you can see if from the cab. That should tell you if the pressure is dropping. It is not recommended to run a fuel pressure gauge in the cab unless you use an Isolator. This keeps actual gas from flowing in the vehicle. Anyway, I think fuel is worth looking at. Chuck in NH
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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I can floor it on the flats and it picks up great but when I take a hill it just slows down, it won't maintain speed. Forget carrying a load. I did check out the fuel issue, it has new lines, a clean tank, rebuilt fuel pump and rebuilt carb. I initially found a problem with the rebuilt distributer which I found the centrifugal advance was blocked not allowing advance. Since that fix it runs better. I checked vacumn and centrifugal and combined advance and was within specs. I replaced carburetor with a rebuilt one. My personal feeling is the weight of the truck, low flowing heads, restrictive exhaust are all adding to the problem. I was told by a mechanic to disconnect the muffler and see if it makes a difference. If it has more power the exhaust could be part of the issue. Do you think if I disconnected the muffler there would be a chance I would burn a valve?
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Oh, I forgot to say I did check TDC with #1 piston and is right on the mark.
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By Dan in Seattle - 15 Years Ago
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Hmmmmm, if it accelerates on the flat per expectations then perhaps you're back to perception of what the engine is capable of. My aforementioned brother also owned a hilarious looking 55 F5 with the 256 Yblock, you couldn't help but burst out laughing as you looked at the front of that ugly bulldog of a truck. That 7K# truck served it's patient master for over 50 years hauling loads of apple boxes to market. When it came time to drive it over the Cascades to Seattle it was no surprise my brother was down to 30mph on the steep grades. That dead stock truck was shipped a year ago to a Swedish car collector.
In any case, as the guys are saying, if you simply change the simple bits like 1957 intake, 113 or G heads, cheap but very good long tube truck headers, mech advance dist from 1957 up, also very cheap, and you've got good compression, power may come up some 20-25%. That leaves the cam as the weak link, which also brings to mind making sure you don't have some flat lobes. If you choose to pull the cam have it and lifters re-ground to good lift. But where do you stop? Complete rebuild with 292 or 312 crank, re-pistoned etc? If so suggest leaving those decks .04 over the pistons to avoid detonation. Complete Yblock top quality rebuilds cost me a bit over $3K. If you choose to go with FE block you would get serious power upgrade but you'd never see much better than 10mpg. Before you toss em check your original heads to see if they're 471s.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 15 Years Ago
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There's no advantage to putting a 292 crank in a 272, they're the same stroke. The 312 crank is a different horse though.
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By Dan in Seattle - 15 Years Ago
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Got me there all right.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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RE avoiding detonation, with unmilled G heads, a 272 will have compression just above 8:1 if about .040 is left between the piston and the head. When building the engine, about .040 is what you want. It will not be in danger of detonation due to compression.
A 292 with the same setup will be just above 8.5:1, and a 312 will be just above 9:1. You can see that the displacement just isn't there to allow compression high enough to worry about detonation in most cases. Forget what they posted in manuals and advertising, it's all lies. The compression figures, as assembled by Ford are even lower in '57
Looking at these numbers, with the late small valve truck heads, and the fact that his pistons are probably in the hole, he might not even have 7:1 for compression. A compression increase will be a huge step in the right direction and regular fuel can still be used.
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By Dan in Seattle - 15 Years Ago
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Charlie, I actually was hoping for some info about what I did to my engines in regards to compression. I'm new here so perhaps you could start another... uh, what do you call these lines of communications, threads? in tech section?
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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As Charlie said I think with a lower comp height piston, comp gaskets, + small valve heads have added to the problem. I will probably leave the engine in the truck and take the heads off. If the piston in the hole distance is more than stock should I put the thinner steel stock gaskets on? I didn't really want to plane the heads down in that there are unposted.
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By charliemccraney - 15 Years Ago
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Dan in Seattle (12/5/2010) Charlie, I actually was hoping for some info about what I did to my engines in regards to compression.
Start a new thread with your inquiry. Tell us the modifications you made and we should be able to come up with a ball park figure.
idaho211 (12/5/2010) If the piston in the hole distance is more than stock should I put the thinner steel stock gaskets on? I didn't really want to plane the heads down in that there are unposted.
If you had your block and heads surfaced at the time of the rebuild and the pistons are at least .030 in the hole, then use the shim gaskets. If they are less than .030, or the block/heads were not surfaced, then use composition gaskets.
If your heads are the late small valve truck heads, then they should be posted. Milling is an option. Heavy milling usually costs more than a clean up cut, and the intake surface will have to be cut which adds to the cost. I'd find out how much it will cost to mill your current heads, see how it compares to having the G heads reworked. If it's not much difference, then I'd go ahead and do the Gs. I think you will find more compression by swapping the Gs than you will by milling the truck heads. Ted says its about .0064" per cc for the G heads. If it's close to the same, you will have to remove about .045 to get the same compression as the Gs. That's why I've suggested swapping before milling.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks again for the info. I will keep you informed as to how it is going.
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By slumlord444 - 15 Years Ago
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My vote is for g heads, 57 4bbl intake and either stock 312 carb or 500 cfm Holley. Dual exhausts with crossover pipe and good turbo mufflers. Headers optional. All this will work great with 292 or 312 if you decide to upgrade latter to more cubes.
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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idaho211 (12/1/2010) Dilema: I had my 272 rebuilt 3 years ago. I didn't know much about head combinations, exhaust, etc all I knew was I wanted a Y-block for my truck. I ended up going with a 272 .030 over, 61 small valve heads, stock exhaust, 2 barrel, stock cam. Result has been negative. No power on hills. Disappointing.Running a cranking compression check on all the cylinders and insuring that they are all within 10% of each other from the lowest reading to the highest would be at the top of the list. This insures that the engine is mechanically in good condition while also giving a rough idea what the dynamic compression ratio is. 155-160 lbs of cranking compression would be considered a good number for a good running 272. From the descriptions you give on the performance of the engine, I suspect you do have cranking compression readings that will be on the low side which would simply indicate a compression ratio that’s also on the low side. This would explain the lack of power going up those hills. Even if you’re going forward with a head and/or head gasket swap, I’d still recommend that a compression check be performed prior to pulling the heads so that those values can be compared to the numbers obtained after boosting the compression ratio.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Ted, Thats what I was thinking of doing prior to taking the heads. Thanks for the values. To run a compression test I know I would take out the plugs, disconnect the coil wire, anything else?
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By Ted - 15 Years Ago
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Be sure the throttle is blocked in the wide open position when performing the cranking compression test.
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By idaho211 - 15 Years Ago
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Thanks Ted. I will let you guys know what I find.
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By lameyer - 15 Years Ago
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Something else to think about, Try stainless steel or copper core plug wires, I put stainless on my "56" and it made a noticeable difference !
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