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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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I'm just curious, the Japanese government is telling their people to stay indoors, is, at best, a brick wall going to save them from radiation poisoning? It sounds kinda like duck and cover to me.
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By The Master Cylinder - 14 Years Ago
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Duck and cover... And take your iodine pills.
What gets me (and I'm only going by what I have read) is they need to cool the "core" but in order to pump the water they need electricity for the electric drivers (or steam for the turbine drivers) WTF... They can't generate electricity or steam without the reactor. Sound like a fail safe system to me... That is why they are running electrical lines from an external source???
Sounds like they need some fossil fuel drivers, like some Y-Blocks to spin their generators. (Sorry, had to get Y-Blocks in somewhere).
Sorry for the rant, but this pisses me off. I used to work in a Cogen Plant at a West Coast Refinery. We supplied our own electricity because we could not rely on outside sources. Our generators ran on Electricity, 850 Pound Steam and/or Jet Engines that could burn just about anything we threw at them from natural gas to Jet Fuel.
Once again sorry for the rant.
Oh, wait. one last thing, the Japanese said a least the wind is blowing the radioative material offshore so the levels are dropping. Guess what, it is blowing toward Hawaii and our West coast. Don't know if it will make it this far, but you have to like the mentality.
Happy Saint Paddy's day everyone, I need a Beer.
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By MoonShadow - 14 Years Ago
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I'm a little suprized that they didn't have emergency power onsite. The Japanese are usuall very good about safety and rendundancy in their systems. The lack of major building damage is a testament to their earthquake awareness in construction. I'll bet if they get through this one they will have enough generator power to run a battleship by the next time! Chuck in NH I just hope we all get through this without major problems around the world. Don't forget there are Y-Blockers in Japan too! 
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By 314 - 14 Years Ago
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they had power on site.diesel powered generators in the basement.wrong place for a flood.
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By 46yblock - 14 Years Ago
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I live 50 miles from the coast, as the crow flies. Tonight as the sun sat behind the mountains there was an eery luminescent glow. Well not really. From what everyone who is supposed to know tells us, we wont have a problem. I believe them, and feel for the devastated Japanese. For some reason it feels good that our Navy is right there, bumping and prodding the country to action, ready to bring in big pumps at a moments notice.
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By The Master Cylinder - 14 Years Ago
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314, had not heard about the diesel powered generators, unfortunate placement. But after looking at some videos of the tsunami, I wonder where they could have been placed out of harm. I guess we should all hope for the best for the Japaneze and like Chuck said for all of us.
Mike, do you really believe "From what everyone who is supposed to know tells us, we wont have a problem." I don't, not anymore after all the lies we have been fed about our current financial situation...
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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The west coast of the US will be fine. As widespread as the Chernobyl disaster was, the distance from Japan to the US is far greater and the events in Japan should not be nearly as devastating as that which occurred in Ukraine. Let's hope it is not.
I think it has already surpassed the Three Mile Island incident as far as the released radioactive material goes.
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By Y block Billy - 14 Years Ago
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Not a physicist but I am radioactive! I did work in Maine Yankee before changing out a reactor coolant pump. 9000 hp motor 9 ft diameter pipe in and out and there are 3 pumps each pumping 164,000 gallons a minute. that helicopter carrying 30 tons of water is not going to make much headway, it would equal 81 helicopters a minute to cool what the pumps do. IMHO this place is melting down and there is not much they can do about it. Sorry, in china and do not have any stations in english but looking at the pictures of the plant, it is getting worse all the time. I was told when I worked there that 1 exposed rod could wipe out an area 2 cities away. i think they have more than 1 exposed rod.
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By Grizzly - 14 Years Ago
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Guys, Planet earth is a fish bowl and what they get we get. Nuclear power is the most dirtiest form of power. I hate to be the greeny but what the f**k do you do with waste that last 200k years. These babies fail every few years. The more the merrier. At least we knew where we were with fossil fuels. Glowing Warren
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By stuey - 14 Years Ago
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could Homer help out?? sorry but these situations scare the hell out of me, and i think what are we leaving for the kids?...the only way i cope is making light stuey
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By pegleg - 14 Years Ago
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Let's remember, it was a 9.0 Earthquake AND a tsunami that caused this. How often has that happened? Or will it happen? The heliocopters are trying to refill the spent rod tanks, where the circulation requirements are much lower. They are trying to connect the cooling systems to an outside source with hoses to supplant the cooling system. That'll work if the cooling systems have not been broken or cracked. The US navy has used Nuclear Powered vessels for 50+ years with ONE fatal accident. That was 30 years ago and caused by Sheer Stupidity on the part of the victim. For perspective there have been 10,000 + people that died from the earthquake and Tsunami, ZERO from the reactors so far.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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Grizzly (3/18/2011)
Guys,
Planet earth is a fish bowl and what they get we get. Nuclear power is the most dirtiest form of power. I hate tobe the greeny but what the f**k do you do with waste that last 200k years. These babies fail every few years. The more the merrier.
At least we knew where we were with fossil fuels.
Glowing
Warren
It'll be around much longer than 200k years. Uranium 238 has a half-life of nearly 4.5 billion years. Uranium 235 has a half-life of about 7 hundred million years. Uranium 234 has a half-life of abour 245,000 years. The power plants use 238 or 235 depending on the reactor, most are the 235 variety.
As far as the reactors being dirty, Uranium 235 releases about 3,000,000 time more energy than an equivalent mass of coal, so while standing next to a piece of coal won't kill you as the uranium will, the volume of waste produced at a nuclear plant is much less, and that waste can be confined to a specific area whereas coal smoke goes where it will via the atmosphere. Because so much less is needed, the impact of mining on the environment is lessened as well. Nuclear power also takes away the joy of breathing coal smoke.
I don't think nuclear power is the ultimate answer but it's a step toward the right, clean technology. It is progress. I personally would rather see a Nuclear plant on the horizon, than black smoke out of a coal stack.
Edit: Apparently they use Plutonium at the affected power plant. Plutonium 239 has a half life of just over 24,000 years, so depending on the mass it could be virtually gone in a couple hundred thousand years.
I just saw Franks post, and I have to say that I agree 100%. This isn't a typical Nuclear incident. I seem to remember from studying Chernobyl that it was more a result of misinformation and bad decisions that led to the meltdown than some mechanical failure - that my friends is human error and there is no fix for that. It doesn't mean we should abandon a technology because something might happen.
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By The Master Cylinder - 14 Years Ago
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pegleg (3/18/2011)
For perspective there have been 10,000 + people that died from the earthquake and Tsunami,ZERO from the reactors so far.
Good point, Frank. "So far". The radiation effects the thyroid gland (hence why they are passing out iodine tablets). Takes a long time to show up. I was treated with radiation when I was a youngster and guess what? 45 years later, guess what? I have Thyroid cancer...
I don't think you can compare the immediate deaths from the earthquake and tsunami with eventual deaths from being exposed to excessive amounts of radioactive materials.
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By lowrider - 14 Years Ago
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I'm not a nuclear physicists but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. (Somebody had to do it)
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By Doug T - 14 Years Ago
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Frank and Charlie have some good points about the relative safety of nuclear power. There is a significant amount of heat generated after the reactor ceases criticality that gradually drops off as time goes by. This heat amounts to about 7% of full power at initial shutdown and gradually drops down so that in about 3 or 4 weeks (or maybe longer for a bigger reactor than a sub's) the core does not need active cooling anymore. But the fuel is still generating decay heat that needs to be removed.
In Japan as I understand it all 6 reactors shut down as expected from the earthquake itself. The problem is that the diesel generators that were intended to run the cooling pumps after shutdown were swamped in the Tsunami. To me after the big Tsunami after Xmas 2004 that seems like something that could have been foreseen. These generators also powered the cooling for the spent fuel pools that are part of every plant now, so they are also overheating. The reactors are in the containment building but the cores were not adequately cooled and when they get hot they start to dissociate the water to hydrogen and oxygen. These gases are vented into the containment building and they caused the hydrogen explosions that have ripped off the tops of the buildings. The spent fuel pools are in the containment buildings so the spent fuel is now exposed to the atmosphere. I think that this is where they are trying to dump the sea water with helicopters.
There is a lot to learn from these accidents and it is also worth remembering that these plants were designed in the '60's and early 70's when most engineers were still using slide rules. We can do it a lot better now. I to am a supporter of nuclear power and as Charlie says the emissions from a coal burning plant are far higher than a Nuke. In fact if a nuke emitted all the radioactive stuff that comes in coal and goes up the stack or into the fly ash from a coal burning plant it would be shut down immediately. Not to mention the slag heaps in the mountains, the ash ponds that pollute ground water and deaths from mining. But I suspect that we will see another big push against nukes again.
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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Tshernobyl... Well I'm still here  . I remember the day we had to go to the shelter ( as a practice ) when I was at the school. Disasters come and go, but recently there has been too many of them. Australian floods and fires, earthquakes here and there, Island vulcanos etc. What really causes those? Digging the oil from the earth or what? The truth is, that if you take something from somewhere, it makes an empty spot there. And when the time flies, that empty spot has a tendency to fill itself with something. If you don't belive, try this: Fill up a class of water, stick your finger in it and then take it off. What happens? After a while there is no hole anymore in the place of your finger. So, what I belive, people get what they deserve from taking too much from some place? Not pointing my finger to anyone or any place, but..Just wandering...
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By Y block Billy - 14 Years Ago
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You may still be here Hollow, but Chyrnoble definately affected you!
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By The Master Cylinder - 14 Years Ago
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Thank you Billy, that's what I was trying to convey. I hope you are in a save spot in China away from that mess in Japan.
Like I said earlier, the radiation effects the Thyroid Gland (among other body parts) Gee, guess I don't have to worry, I no longer have a Thyroid due to Radiation "Treatment". Those poor people are being exposed to thousands of times more that I was...
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By The Master Cylinder - 14 Years Ago
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And Charlie you are Correct. Designers of these plants, be it a Nucular power plant, a Oil refinary or what ever don't design for a triple threat, say Human error, loss of power and mechanical failure. In their tiny minds it can't happen, but what it really comes down to is COST... Been there in the design process.
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By aussiebill - 14 Years Ago
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lowrider (3/18/2011)
I'm not a nuclear physicists but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. (Somebody had to do it)Very funny.
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By Y block Billy - 14 Years Ago
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Let me tell you from experience working around the globe for 20 years at all sorts of plants, the ones in asia may have some slight safety concers in their designs, but once running and the money coming in, they care less about any safety or people. They are just concerned about the dollar signs in there eyes and trying to catch up with the rest of the world.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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Hollow Head (3/18/2011)
...Disasters come and go, but recently there has been too many of them...
I've noticed that, too. I'm young and was wondering if it is just because I haven't really paid attention to those sorts of things for very long. Another possibility is that because news travels faster today, we hear about more of it, practically in real time.
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By pegleg - 14 Years Ago
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I think Ted's buddy Randy of the "dragster" fame is a nuclear worker. I believe he does plant maintainance. same as you Billy? Those guy would have a far better handle on the likely outlook than we do. All I'm saying is I don't think the sky has fallen......yet. Remember, most people thought the world was flat and SBC's were the greatest engine ever, How'd that turn out?
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By Y block Billy - 14 Years Ago
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Yes he did as I recall talking to him a few years ago at columbus. What these plants do is they design then for say 400 tons per hour, so they buy all the equipment to hande only 400 tons per hr. once started and they make their goal, then they want 125% from the machinery so they are pushing it beyond its rated capacity and beating the crap out of the machinery. if in the original design they would oversize the equipment a little and look towards the future they would save in the long run. Thats why I hate production managers, they are the ones who push the plants with dollar signs in their eyes, instead of realizing they are running up maintenence cost and creating unexpected shutdowns. They did not watch the tortoise and the hare enough when they were kids. If they would just run the stuff at a steady rate that is not beating the crap out of it, it would go many more miles in the long run. Its like Ted putting his Y Blocks (had to get some Y related info in here) on the dyno up to 7500rpm and another one at 4000rpm and just leaving them there, which is going to last longer. Or take 2 new cars get on the highway and hold one petel to the floor, and 1 at just a nice cruising rpm and which is going to get the most mileage. Plain and simple analogy but there isn't a plant in the world that understands this. Back to the Nuclear subject, on the news here they were showing a graph of a radiation cloud heading to the US and expected to be there on day 6. I don't know what they are saying but just try to make things out by the pictures. I think I am safer than most of you because where I am in the middle of China it has to travel the complete globe before it reaches me.
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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Weird or not, but even we had a small eartquake here yesterday just 5 kilometers from us. I didn't even feel or hear it cause I was in car just arriving home. It was only 2.6 by finnish Department of Geosciences and Geography. People said their houses vibrated. http://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/earthquake.php?id=214541 So, you never know what is going to happen. Life is full of surprices
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By Moz - 14 Years Ago
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i think you guys will be fine we had atomic bomb testing here in the 50's & 60's & the population of oz is fine but just incase america does get radiation we'll send over heaps of vegemite
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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Vegemite should be included to every emergency bag in the states. In any case of possibly coming hazard it should be used as a protective layer on everymans skin 
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By pegleg - 14 Years Ago
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One of the USN's procedures is to design everything for 2 or 3 times it's expected maximum output, Where possible. Then it's tested at maximum, but never run that hard again. Also in the Navy, the maintenance procedures are followed to the letter, unless it's impossible under combat conditions. You don't want to be responsible for exceeding the limits or not following a procedure. Trust me on that one. Some of the early nuclear powered vessels lasted 50 years before decommissioning, without incident. I read recently that the second Enterprise Carrier steamed close to or just over a million miles, and then was taken out of service. Moz, you'd better send your vegamite to Finland, where the'll appreciate the finer things in Aussie cusine.
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By Moz - 14 Years Ago
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hey seppo i never thought of that if you put a layer of vegemite all over your skin no radiation will be able to penetrate the stuff is too thick. frank after the atomic tests in the 50's & 60's & australia got radiated we grew a liking to vegemite it wasnt that popular before the bomb tests so i thought if the radiation made it to the u.s. we could send you guys some cause you'll end up with a taste for it.
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By aussiebill - 14 Years Ago
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[quote]Moz (3/21/2011)
hey seppo i never thought of that if you put a layer of vegemite all over your skin no radiation will be able to penetrate the stuff is too thick.Moz, then we all could sing mamee, mamee, ala Al Jolsen.
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