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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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Well I finally finished up this adventure and got it running. I used the EZ Efi system from FAST. It is fuel injection for dummies.. Very easy and trouble free. My home made hack and bash manifold seems to work fine.. I learned a lot about EFI and how it works. The engine fires right up and idles much better than the 600 Edelbrock that was on it. It made 325 horse with a Blue Thunder intake when I tested it in 2010. I hope to dyno it next week and see how the EFI compares. Then I can go about tidying up the appearance. A rats nest of wires currently.  
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By Ted - 14 Years Ago
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Looking good Royce. The dyno numbers should prove to be interesting.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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I thought ez efi used a 4 barrel throttle body. Do they make a port ez efi now? I don't see it on the site.
Nevermind. Found it. Cool!
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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Well done. What was the actual cost of that set up?
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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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Seppo, the controller, wiring, and all the sensors was $900. Jerry C. gave me the manifold. An ebay pump and regulator about $100. The injectors are mustang, used, free. Throttle body, 75 mm for a 302 $80. Plumbing and hoses $100. Injector bungs $3.00 ea. Many hours of time,swearing, scratching head, and ham fisted fabricating... $0.00
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By Big6ft6 - 14 Years Ago
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Very cool! I've had my eye on the EZ EFI throttle body set up as an easy way to bring reliability and driveability to one of my old cars, but this new multi-port option seems to open up the possibilities even more. Now if I could just open up my time and budget! What kind of interface does it require with the ignition system? I seem to recall reading that these EZ EFI needs a very clean tach signal or something like that...are you using stock ignition?
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By LordMrFord - 14 Years Ago
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Triggering from Coil minus or crank?
Good DIY project, Thumbs up!
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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But sooo expensive. Check this out http://fordfuelinjection.com/ . Ford's own system is very versatile and cheap as mud and you can convert it to almost everything. Intake manifold is the greatest challenge if you are planning to do Y with multiport, but it sure is doable. And what did our Megasquirt system cost. Two Mustang throttle bodys about 50 euros, Mega itself about 200 euros, wide band oxygen sensor about 70 euros, TPS sensor, IAT sensor, temperature sensor and some other small parts together about 50 euros. Intakes cost about 20 euros from material costs and as I welded it by myself the building costs were zero. Eight 19 lbs/hr injectors cost almost nothing. Say 50 euros. This is here in Finland, where everything is expensive but there you can find everything from salvage yards for almost free, so...
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By Ketterbros - 14 Years Ago
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When I put the 92 roller motor in the Falcon, I gave away the EFI set up, to be able to run in the stock classes, and now I regret it, as I could have adapted it to my 312..57 Fairlane.. Have a Son Inlaw who is a TIG welding fool (owns scrubs)
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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Ok, just for a thought... This is what I'd do if planning EFi engine for a cruiser: (And ofcourse if money wouldn't be a problem  ) Mummert intake Wilson 90 degree elbow to fit that intake http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/products/throttle-body-elbows-/cast-elbows/4150-cast-elbows.html Wilson 75 mm 915 cfm throttle body to fit that elbow http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/products/throttle-bodies-/single-bore-throttle-bodies/square-flange-throttle-bodies.html Wilson TPS sensor http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/products/throttle-bodies-/throttle-body-accessories/tps-components.html And then simply drill four big enough (90 lbs/hr maybe?) fuel injectors on sides of that elbow to feed the hungry Y. Fuel lines to those and then some Megasquirt stuff to control the fuel flow. Ok, then we need also fuel pump http://www.jcwhitney.com/high-pressure-110-fi-electric-fuel-pump-for-fuel-injection/p2029030.jcwx And a regulator for that also and of couse the one that is also boost sensitive MSD pro billet to control the spark etc... Should work fine or then something with crank triggering to get things controlled by megasquirt and to get traction control, anti lag and etc... And two huge turbos to give some boost  And of course all that expensive stuff could well be done with cheaper and home made parts also. Just dreaming...
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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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The EZ Efi is a speed density system It does not measure air flow so it is simpler than a Mass airflow type. It measures throttle position, vacuum, air and coolant temperature, and it also measures ambient air pressure. What makes this system simple is that it is self learning. There are fuel maps pre loaded in the ecm that will get the engine started and running. Unlike earlier speed density systems that only had narrow band 02 sensor, this one has a wide band. The computer reads the O2 sensor, and adjusts the fuel to reach a pre determined AF ratio. As the engine runs the computer rewrites the fuel maps so the O2 sensor has to adjust the fuel less and less. After the engine spends some time under various load and speed conditions the fuel maps become more and more refined and the engine runs better. The ecm allows you to adjust several parameters. A/F ratio at idle, cruise, and WOT. Idle speed, and acceleration enrichment. No laptop required. There is a hand held controller with simple menus to make the adjustments and monitor engine function. This unit does not control timing. It can pick up a signal from points, an electronic trigger, or the tach output on an MSD Yes i could have done it cheaper with junkyard parts and a megasquirt.. The megasquirt controller seemed daunting to me and not having much experience with anything but carbs I opted to go this route. A new higher end Holley will run you $700, so I felt this system was priced reasonably.. Time will tell how it performs
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By Hollow Head - 14 Years Ago
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Rb, it's ok to go that way! Just wanted to point out some other options. As, I'm not pro on Efi thing, I've just learned out that things with Efi are so much easier to tune with and that going back to carb is a no no! I'm just glad that you there are getting our point to shift out of carbs  . Carbs are history...
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By LordMrFord - 14 Years Ago
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How that EZ thing tune acceleration encrichments? In Megasquirt that is only thing in fuel control side, that hasnt autotune option.
Yes, EFI is easier to tune, you dont have to grease your fingers when you tune. You just have to use the power words behind the laptop.(done that...a lot)
I think, carbs are pretty easy to tune if you have same logging possibilities. Lambdas, Fuel Pressure, RPM etc.
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By Ketterbros - 14 Years Ago
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RB no neg's here, your work is great, just some jealousey here at this end...Keep posting your progress, very interested.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 14 Years Ago
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You really have made good step in using multi-port EFI on the Y block. My thought is/was the popularity of the Mustang 5.0 EFI system along with a good supply of junkyard, used parts with the tunability afforded by Mustang performance market makes it cheap and possible to use on a Y block. This was a project I started way back while still working at the Ford dealer as an engine performance/drivability tech. I had come up the ranks beginning with Fords introduction of EFI in the early 80’s. Lots of experience gained from that and then the EFI 5.0 Mustang aftermarket took off. I spent some bucks and plenty of time tweaking two F150 Lightning 5.8 trucks. My idea was to graft the Ford Mustang 5.0/Lighting 5.8 GT40 Multiport EFI EEC IV system to the 312 in my 57 Bird. Aftermarket parts like throttle bodies, injectors, computer chips, etc. were everywhere as well as programs and tuning shops able to modify the MAF sensors and computer programs on dynos. The two most difficult hurdles were the intake maniflold and distributor. I had just begun to correspond with Walt Knuckles while we were on the old Y block Discussion List, regarding the EEC IV TFI ignition conversion of a Y block distributor when he passed away. This was to use the TFI module and stator to fire the ignition and injectors using a remote TFI and heat sink used on Ford EFI 460 trucks and vans. The intake was the biggest problem due to the stacked intake ports on the heads. I picked up an Offy 3x2 aluminum manifold with the intention hacking it up a bit to somehow accept the injector bung placement in a workable position. Then fashion a plenum that would bolt to the top of the Offy intake that had individual intake runners for each cylinder. To that would be mounted a Mustang/Lightning throttle body and MAF creating a kind of cobbled Ford GT40 intake setup used on the first generation 5.8 Lightnings and 93 Cobra Mustang. I also bought an old Y block marine intake and carbs from John Mummert that had been hanging on his wall for years.. The idea was to determine a way to modify it the same way or better than the Offy. Given that I have the Ford Racing supercharger kit and MAF conversion kit which includes the PCM, injectors, MAF, sensors and wiring harnesses from the last Lightning I owned, getting the Ford EEC setup on the 312 looked promising. We lost Walt and life took its twists and turns so the project lays dormant under the table in the garage. Since I am not a welder by any stretch, especially aluminum, fabricating or modifying an aluminum manifold was outside my skills. I have been watching the Hollow Heads stuff and seeing your manifold with the injector placing has me thinking again. Looking forward to seeing how your injection system progresses.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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What is the big difference between the function of a tfi distributor and a duraspark distributor? Obviously duraspark, which can be retrofitted to a Y pretty easily, can't be used if you're planning to use tfi.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 14 Years Ago
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The TFI distributor uses the Hall Effect square wave signal to fire the ignition and injectors for Ford EEC IV.
Hall Effect in Automotive ignition and fuel injection
Commonly used in distributors for ignition timing (and in some types of crank and camshaft position sensors for injection pulse timing, speed sensing, etc.) the Hall effect sensor is used as a direct replacement for the mechanical breaker points used in earlier automotive applications. Its use as an ignition timing device in various distributor types is as follows. A stationary permanent magnet and semiconductor Hall effect chip are mounted next to each other separated by an air gap, forming the Hall effect sensor. A metal rotor consisting of windows and tabs is mounted to a shaft and arranged so that during shaft rotation, the windows and tabs pass through the air gap between the permanent magnet and semiconductor Hall chip. This effectively shields and exposes the Hall chip to the permanent magnet's field respective to whether a tab or window is passing though the Hall sensor. For ignition timing purposes, the metal rotor will have a number of equal-sized tabs and windows matching the number of engine cylinders. This produces a uniform square wave output since the on/off (shielding and exposure) time is equal. This signal is used by the engine computer or ECU to control ignition timing. Many automotive Hall effect sensors have a built-in internal NPN transistor with an open collector and grounded emitter, meaning that rather than a voltage being produced at the Hall sensor signal output wire, the transistor is turned on providing a circuit to ground through the signal output wire.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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Doesn't Duraspark use a Hall Effect sensor? What sort of signal does Duraspark produce? Can that signal be converted to a square wave with some additional circuitry in an external module?
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By MarkMontereyBay - 14 Years Ago
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Duraspark uses a different ignition module and pickup. The key is to mount the EEC IV TFI Hall Effect pickup in or on the Y block distributor body to be triggered by the reluctor wheel and subsequently wired to the TFI module and then to the EEC system. Walt Knuckles had built one prototype and sent me a photo but I lost it years ago.
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By MarkMontereyBay - 14 Years Ago
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Here is a drawing of the stator vane wheel that goes on the distributor shaft and circles through the Hall Effect pickup to create the signal.
This is a photo of the pickup that is inside the distributor.
This is a photo of the TFI ignition module that is screwed on to the side of the distributor body with three electrical pins that plug in to the pickup through a slot in the distributor.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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Since small block points distributor bodies will interchange with y block bodies, I assume that a tfi body will fit a Y. If that is the case, can it be resolved with a new distributor shaft which will adapt a tfi distributor to fit a Y?
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By MarkMontereyBay - 14 Years Ago
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Charlie,
I am not sure but by your description, it could be possible. I have an old TFI distributor I used as a work test tool somewhere in the garage, otherwise yanking one out of any late model 86(?) and up V8 at the pick and pull could be worth a look. I thought the base that fits in block was a different diameter than the Yblock but it has been a long time so memory is faded. If it is the the same, using a distributor ignition module from a 90's Ford 460 EFI truck/van motor is best.
The TFI module is not attached to the distributor on these vehicles but mounted on the body to insulate it from engine vibration and heat which are the enemy of printed circuits in the module. There is a wire harness that plugs into the distributor. The reluctor vane is permanently welded to the top of the EFI distributor shaft. Also determining the position of the distributor drive gear could come into question.
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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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Guys, I don't want to leave the impression that I was somehow offended by suggestions on doing this cheaper or better.. I am a big fan of re-engineering existing parts.. In this case my knowledge base on the tech aspects of factory efi is small so I went the easy route
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By MarkMontereyBay - 14 Years Ago
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RB,
No worries from me. I have been piddling around with this project off and on for years. You actually got one up and running. My experience with Ford EEC and EFI leads me to try working that system for a Y Block as I am more comfortable with it versus the aftermarket stuff. I would be a little lost re-learning those systems. Cost is probably going to be similar after all is said and done I think. The Ford Racing MAF Multiport Injection Conversion kit (First Generation 5.8 Lightnings are speed density) cost 800 bucks back then. The Ford Racing Super Charger Kit (Powerdyne and smog legal here in California) for the 95 Lightning, if used on this project, was $2000 with a employee discount. Used 88 and later Mustang 5.0 parts are around but I have seen less of the them lately at swap meets.
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By Ketterbros - 14 Years Ago
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RB, no harm, grew up with 4 brothers, as for the TFI, there was extensive posts about converting Duraspark(MSD) ingnition for the Y-Block dizzy..got one in my 57, was even going to try and convert my Offenhouser Dual Coil... You keep at it, and my Brother and I will watch and learn..
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By LordMrFord - 14 Years Ago
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Hmm... EEC with EDIS got no worries with dizzy. It's not hard to bolt on trigger wheel to balancer if other option is dizzy's total modification.
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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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On Friday Jerry Christenson and I dyno tested the port injected 292
The results were pleasing. I had tested this engine in 2010 with a Blue Thunder intake, 750 carb on E85 fuel. It made 323 hp at 6100 rpm and 304 lb ft of torque at 5000 rpm. It is a 9:1 compression bone stock 292 bottom end with G heads sporting a street/strip porting job. It has a Cam by Comp with 230 at .050 duration .
After modifying one of Jerry's single plane hi rise intakes to accept port fuel injectors, and hooking up the EZ Efi computer, I was curious how power numbers would look compared to my best carb package.
The engine started immediately and settled down to a very nice 800 rpm idle. We warmed it up and did some simulated cruise pulls to check air fuel numbers. One of the very nice features is that the EZ EFI lets you select air fuel ratio for idle, cruise, and WOT. I put the WOT ratio at 12.5 just to be safe. With no other tuning the first couple pulls essentially duplicated the carb numbers. The engine AF looked really good, with the EZ EFI computer in full agreement with the numbers from the dyno sensors. I decided to lean it to 13.5 and see if it liked that. It did, and after a timing adjustment to 31 degrees we got a best pull of 328 hp at 6100 and 304 torque at 5000.
Very modest improvement from the best performance with a
carburetor.
But wait there is more!
The ave horsepower changed +17 between 3600 and 6200 rpm vs the carb. That is significant. Torque ave remained the same. Studying the graphs revealed the the injection fixed the torque dip commonly seen in the mid range rpm on carbureted Y blocks,thus pulling up the ave hp.
I also think that Jerry's long runner single plane intake helped midrange torque vs the dual plane. In summary, I think my experiment is a success. I really like the EZ EFI system It is simple to set up, and simple to tune, but still sophisticated enough to do a good job of fuel management. Plus it is very versatile, and can be adapted to almost any engine/manifold combo.
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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Perhaps you should dyno that setup with a carb to be sure that the intake isn't causing the avg hp improvement. Also, if the hp increased at a given RPM, then the torque had to as well. So the torque curve is probably quite a bit different even though it averaged the same.
I wish they would make an ez efi that will work with boost!
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By Ted - 14 Years Ago
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Good job Royce. Thanks for sharing. What are the future plans for this engine?
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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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Charlie, this single plane intake has been tried several times with a carb, but was not a good performer.. No doubt some of the gain was due to it's better airflow than a dual plane intake, but because we know a carb won't work with this manifold, the fuel metering is the key. If you look at the torque curve, you find what you would expect. A dual plane shows up better at lower rpm, but the single plane shines from 4000 rpm up.
Ted, This engine is going into a 55 Bird, but probably not with the injection
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By Ketterbros - 14 Years Ago
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Great work needs to be acknowledged, and is reconized by Us excaped Pennnsylvania Boys...
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By pegleg - 14 Years Ago
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Royce, How did you retain the fuel lines to the injectors? I can't tell from the photos. Interesting that the injection filled in the low spots in single plane torque numbers. Kind of indicates the problem (with a carb) is poor fuel metering at those rpm's.
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By RB - 14 Years Ago
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Frank I bought the caps that adapt injector to 1/8 pipe
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EFI-HILBORN-CONVERSION-COMPONENTS-THROTTLE-BODY-BLOWER-/220804064676?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3368f2a5a4
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By davis - 14 Years Ago
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RB, that setup looks interesting. great job with "tooling" on the Y with EFI.
thanks for sharing.
post up video if possible.
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By grovedawg - 14 Years Ago
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RB (10/17/2011)
Ted, This engine is going into a 55 Bird, but probably not with the injection
Fun little science experiment! Great work Royce. Thanks for sharing.
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