Can I buy some performance?


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By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
Will a Mummert manifold and the best car headers add any performance to a stock 312? Motor has ecz-g heads, 1.54  rockers, the better exhaust manifolds, Holley 4150. Not sure on bore size, or cam specs but assume cam is stock.  If I can buy 25 HP and some torque it would be worth it, for 10 HP probably not.  Any thoughts appreciated, I've been thru the Eaton test pages (amazing) but none really test an otherwise stock engine so I'd be blind guessing any value.  Thanks
By slumlord444 - 13 Years Ago
I would say at least 25 horses. Probably more. Headers alone probably worth that and they will also increase gas milage. Are you planing on changing the carb as well as the intake? Existing carb should work fine. Biger carb will give more power. I am thinking 600 CFM would be max for stock cam. 550 may work better.
By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
I'm thinking about doing both manifold and exhaust. I just ordered MSD 8383 kit, also the original style wire routing clamps, want to be done with the points.  I have an Offenhauser with 3 94s (I Know, don't say it), but I'm not ready for it. The Holley is 600 CFM and I'll keep it if it stops leaking and will work.  Need to get stuff coming and 25 HP will make me spend, Not going to race anything so would be satisfied at anything over 275, figuring it's good for 240 now when tuned correctly.  That's good news thanks. 
By Pete 55Tbird - 13 Years Ago
Ted

Before anyone can give any advice that has any value we need some more information about the car and just what kind of performance you want to improve. Off the line, top end, on the road?

Stick and how many gears 3,4, or 5? Rear axle ratio? If FOM stock or FMX additions?

The very informative test that Ted Eaton did on exhaust manifolds convinced me that headers made more noise and heat than HP.

The car magazines are for the most part trying to sell the product that pay to advertise so be very skeptic of the things they say.

 So please tell us more. Pete

By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
Pete, I'd like to say all of the above in terms of performance but that will realistically be the subject of another engine.  Basicically I would take any improvement, my thinkng is to produce the best performance from this engine absent cam and head replacement, it runs sound and strong as is and I don't want to rebuild the lower.  That said I don't have a target area just want it to be as efficient/powerful as possible by changing aspiration equipment if it makes sense.

It has a T10 4 speed which like the engine is unknown internally, don't have a clue about the rear end ratio, it works fine in combiation.  Drives like a 56, sounds like a 56 and that is really what I'm after.  It will be a cruiser work in progress for many years is the plan, built to achieve my highest level of enjoyment.

Not sure that helps you much, thanks for helping me through this thought process.

By charliemccraney - 13 Years Ago
That distributor alone should make quite an improvement over the vacuum operated original.

Which intake do you have right now? A Holley 4150 will not mount directly to a '56 manifold. An adapter is required. The later ECZ-9425-B manifold will be a step up, assuming that you don't already have it and not quite as pricey as a new aluminum unit. It responds pretty well to some small mods that are easy to accomplish at home. http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic21823-3-1.aspx?
By aussiebill - 13 Years Ago
Pete 55Tbird (2/25/2012)
Ted

Before anyone can give any advice that has any value we need some more information about the car and just what kind of performance you want to improve. Off the line, top end, on the road?

Stick and how many gears 3,4, or 5? Rear axle ratio? If FOM stock or FMX additions?

The very informative test that Ted Eaton did on exhaust manifolds convinced me that headers made more noise and heat than HP.

The car magazines are for the most part trying to sell the product that pay to advertise so be very skeptic of the things they say.

 So please tell us more. Pete

Basic answer is, mummert intake, fix your 600 holley, fit ignition you mention, then tune it and you should be in the ballpark and improve from there.

By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
Charlie the manifold is an A with a tapered adapter, the homemade gasket was probably good for -5 HP I posted a PIC of it somewhere, but it played with the Holley nicely.  Wasn't thinking about a gain from from distributor but I'll take it, for me the weakest most subject to change part of this engine is the distributor, me and this engine deserve electronic ignition, even to just remain in tune without hassle.

AussieBill, what is ballpark? and why not put the headers on it now?

This is the thinking, headers yes, intake yes, get what I can, going to use the Holley and plug the crossover, hoping it may have something to do with the leak.  When I say leak I mean an annoying manifold stain in the front doesn't really drip, but must at sometime because of staining.

Thanks for thoughts this is helping, ordered some gaskets looking for the rubber valve cover gonna have to search old posts sure I read it.

By MoonShadow - 13 Years Ago
There arent any good headers for the 54-56 in car setup. Fenderwells are still sold (Speedway) if you don't mind cutting your wheel wells. Rams horns will not fit in a car due to steering box and motor mount interference. The later, 57 up, stock manifolds are a bit better and port matching will help. The headers you see currently are basicly just for looks with little or no horsepower gain.

There is a project on the west coast to build some correct, in car headers for our cars. Not sure of the current status. I believe Jardeen was working on the design. Jerry Christensen has a set he made that will fit and do breathe but due to low production numbers they are sort of expensive.

I would suggest you look for the later manifold that will accept the Holley directly, the same with exhaust manifolds. clean up the runners with a grinder and port match them to the heads. Then the MSD electronic ignition. It has vacum advance where the Mallory does not.

Hope this helps. You might want to EMAIL Ted Eaton for his suggestions. He is one of the top Y-Block builders at the current time. He's the one that ran all the dyno tests. Chuck

By Grizzly - 13 Years Ago
Ted,

What have you got? You've mentioned a "A" manifold with a leaking Holley, You've mentioned a offy with triple 94's you've bought a MSD 8383 but what dizzy are you currently running.

If you have a standard 56 312 making it more crisp and to boost Hp is really easy and you don't need to spend up big. Really this subject has been handled so may times a simple search will find many posts. A standard 56 will respond nicely to a 57 or later distributor the 8383 is probably better. This will require a carb with timed vacuum or you can run direct but you will need to set the distributor up for it. Really it may only yield 10-20hp but it will feel like much more.

For carb 312 (engine capacity) x 5500 (maximum RPM)/2 (ever second down stroke is a intake stroke)/1728 (cubic inches to cubic feet)  496cfm which is the mean carburetor size for you engine. A smaller carb will give you better economy crisper throttle easier driving and larger carb will give better top end at the expense of bottom end. Remembering a standard cam favors bottom end. If you want to run a 4 barrel a 390, 450, 500 or a 600 with vacuum secondarys is all you need.  A bigger carb will not make it run hard, just the opposite.

Have a look at http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic55379-3-1.aspx?Highlight=exhaust+test  unfortunately there is not a lot of headers around for a 56 car. Mummert has one on the way and I don't know if sanderson got a car to get some dimensions off.

If you have a offy with 94's or a "A" with a later holley try them first  with your 8383 and then come back with I want this or that.

cheers

Warren

By Doug T - 13 Years Ago
Ted,

As others have said and I concur the first thing is to get a '57 or later distributor and have the cent advance recurved to give about 15 deg max dist advance all in at about 3000RPM engine.  This will allow you to have 30deg crank advance and to set something like 10 deg static advance for a total of about 40 deg advance at 3000+ engine RPM.  Check that the timing marks on the harmonic balancer are correct ie the engine is really at TDC when the pointer says it is.  Since you car is running OK it may be good but they can slip. Electronic ignition is all to the good and good wires are esential. People mostly use Autolite BF-42 plugs.

The intake manifold is an interesting question.  The runners in the '56 manifold are smaller than those of the '57 let alone either of John Mummerts.  But if you are running stock, used valve springs you probably will not be turning the engine that fast anyhow so the smaller runners do not hurt as much. I would recommend that you take the tapered adaptor and grind out the 4 holes to become two long slots in both the adaptor and the manifold.  Then look down into the manifold and you will see a'pinch point' where the lower runner dives under the upper runner.  This chokes off that area and can be ground out quite a bit. Then put at least a 1/2" plastic 4 hole spacer under the carb. Don't use the OFFY manifold.

You need to check the pushrods,  If they are about 1/4" dia they are the solid type and are pretty useless, any tubular pushrods are better even cheap chain store ones if you can still get them.

You don't say how the '56 came to have '57 ECZ-G heads.  However the engine could be an 292 or even a 272 and it would be difficult to tell.

BTW I am going to try to send you a personal message please check fo one

By slumlord444 - 13 Years Ago
The '57 intake would be an improvemtnt. Mummerts will be better. If you don't have the '57 and later distributor, going to it with the electronic conversion will be a great improvement plus less maintenance. Put a Pentrox in my '57 and would never go back. You have the good stock heads and rocker arms. 4 speed is a plus. A totaly stock '57 312 in good condition and well tuned is no slouch on the street.
By Pete 55Tbird - 13 Years Ago
Ted

Again, until you are a lot clearer on your objective the unlimited possibilities here are overwhelming.

Start by finding out the axle ratio of your car. If your car does not have a tachometer then get one and see what RPM you use in the driving range you wish to improve the most.

It could be that a rear gear change will be the "best" choice. Or a camshaft change or a NO2 kit of FILL IN THE BLANK.

Until you can say what your after its just a guessing game. Pete

By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
First thanksto all for taking a look at this and the advice is priceless when directed at one's own issues.  I say that because I read a lot and while invaluable doesn't always hit the point, and brings up the personal engine debate.

Bought the car built like it is with no history, runs fine as is, it is a 312 B7ME, maybe that BM part meant boat motor, some say maybe.  It was born a six cylinder in Long Beach by the plate. It does have the later distributor but it will be on the shelf, the MSD 8383 with wires on the way from Jegs, $530. 

Pete I don't really have a target improvement area, grew up with Fords two 57 300s at $25 each were my first cars, recapped tires, filtered oil, and gas at 25 cents a gallon.  Lose a tranny and buy another car, thats how it was 1965 when I started driving.   Car will be used as a cruiser, have other cars so don't care about mileage, not going to race anything just trying to stay ahead of the grim reaper.  Looking to make it as powerful as possible without addressing the lower end.

Headers appear to be out for now based on value, and it has the late model exhaust.  I thought I read an Eaton test on car headers that was a marked improvement for the passenger cars, still hope they're available now or coming soon.

Timing is being addressed, only had two timing marks on damper but ran well at the advance mark.  Bought a tape to apply to damper and will have better look at where this unit will set up.

Question now is Mummert or no Mummert manifold, and I'm leaning toward the purchase, will be an improvement and fit well if I later decide to go futher. 

Having a time with the site losing messages hope this one goes.

By MoonShadow - 13 Years Ago
Ted,

Sounds like you are well on the way. The Mummert manifolds are a definate improvement. I know there is a current waiting list so I would get on it! The other thing that will really wake up the car would be a set of gears although the 6 cyl may have come with 4:10's anyway. Sounds like a great project. Chuck

By Jim - 13 Years Ago
I seem to remember the numbers on the Blue Thunder manifold over a 57 4bbl manifold was 34 hp. The Mummert aluminum intake is a bit better than that according to Ted Eaton, but I don't remember the exact number of hp difference. As to headers, yes, they do make a difference. I have a set of Jerry Christensen headers which I have had ceramic coated (enhances them even more) and they are about as good as you can get to go into a passenger car without going to fender well headers. While not bargain basement price, you get what you pay for. Check with Ted Eaton, he has done exhaustive (no pun intended) tests on various headers on the shop "mule motor" on his computerized dyno. In fact, you should be able to search here and find that information as to what headers worked well and those that didn't.
By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
MoonShadow, waiting list is not what I wanted, reality check I guess, will call tomorrow and hopefully it will not be to bad.  Can pick up a late manifold on the auction if necessary.  I'm going to jack it up and see if I can calculate the rear gearing, certainly will help in understanding what this car is.

Doug T, solid push rods, will look to change them out now, manifold and valve covers are off to change the valley pan which was leaking and started this, along with the timing and accurate TDC, going to do anything good while I'm in here thanks for the heads up. 

By lyonroad - 13 Years Ago
I was hoping someone would recommend what cam Ted should consider. Especially if it was a 292. i've already copied down all the other recommendations.
By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
Well my personal debate continues, thanks MoonShadow and Jim, for putting headers back on the table.  This Mainline is not a candidate for a true restoration and I like em shaved anyway, which after a little thinking puts fenderwell headers in play.  Has anyone cut up the fenderwells and put them in? seems like the fenderwell  headers performed well in testing, gotta look up the exhaust tests again, what an amazing resource are the Eaton tests.

Left message for Mummert about manifold will report back on the wait, got my fingers crossed.

The rear end is a 56 with a 3.73 ratio on the tag, right now it's OK with the T10, but we'll see what happens as progress is made with the motor, need more wheel time to really make decisions.

The B7ME makes me curious about cams, if in fact engineered as a marine application would Ford have specifically designed or chosen a particular cam?  Boat motors are in general torque motors to enable plane, just thinking, doesn't seem to be alot of info on the B7ME.

Thanks to all

By Hoosier Hurricane - 13 Years Ago
The "M" doesn't necessarily mean Marine.  I took one out of a '59 Mercury a few years ago, but M doesn't necessarily mean Mercury either.  That one was a 312.  I also have a B9ME block that is 292.  Some marine engines had reverse rotation, which meant they used a gear drive for the cam instead of a chain.  Saved them from casting and grinding a special backwards running cam and distributor.
By Y block Billy - 13 Years Ago
The 3rd letter for ford parts identification does stand for Mercury, however I have seen several FE's in fords with the (I.E.) C5ME blocks, maybe they just got carried away and cast more blocks than they sold/built Mercury's so they just stuck them in Fords.
By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
Billy, forgive the ignorance, but if 3rd letter M is for Mercury what are B, 7 and E, if they can be decoded.  This engine was blue, I can see it under the current red color, were Merc engines blue?  All marines I have seen (in pictures) are blue, which probably means nothing.

My plans for a Mummert manifold are on hold for a couple months, so I bought a B manifold on the auction site, and I'll have a little time to figure out the headers.

Thanks

By gekko13 - 13 Years Ago
"B" = decade of the 1950's, "7" = 7th year, "M" = Mercury, "E" engine therefore, B7ME = 1957 Mercury engine.  The next group of numbers is the basic part designator (-9424-, intake manifold for example), followed by a suffix which is a series indicator or also used to designate "left" or "right" side.
By charliemccraney - 13 Years Ago
But that does not necessarily mean that it is a 1957 casting. That number is an Engineering number which is sometimes different than the part number. The same part could be cast for years and the date code will tell you when.

Here's a useful site I just found.

http://mustangtek.com/FordDecode.html#Table21
By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
Started digging around Ford part # and found exactly that with an explaination, "The second character indicates the last digit of year of introduction or revision. The number remains the same until the part goes through a major revision."   

Also this from Mummert and COLORMATCH, "B7ME 312 cu. in. V8 1962? later 312 replacement block. C2AE main webs. Only example seen was a marine." 

I guess it really doesn't matter, but if I was a cat my curiosity would be lethal.

 

By PF Arcand - 13 Years Ago
Re the Offenhauser intake.. don't waste your time installing it! Use the "B" intake & a suitable carb, max 600cfm. Sell the Offy or shine it up & display it on your garage wall. It's not worth a hoot on the car!
By brokengate - 13 Years Ago
3 X 2 is not a set up for me, they do look period correct installed and I think that's the value cause I see them on the eauction all the time sell at around $400 with 94s.  Not to mention the Offy just doesn't compare performance wise.  Looks good on the shelf.
By yalincoln - 13 Years Ago
nice 56, i like the color.
By ejstith - 13 Years Ago
I just found out last weekend that Holman & Moody is still in business in Charlotte NC. Phone number 704-583-2888. Larry Wallace is their cam grinder & he's been at it for 46 years which goes back to Holman & Moody's hey days. I would say if one talked to Larry & told them exactly what you wanted the car to do he would grind the right cam for it.