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By PWH42 - 12 Years Ago
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If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me,but doesn't the coil have to be grounded to the engine?If you've insulated the coil housing from the mounting bracket,you're losing that ground.Along that same line,make sure the clamp is making a good clean contact with the intake.It's a possibility that's been your problem all the time.
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By PWH42 - 12 Years Ago
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It's been mentioned before,but double check and make sure your coil is thoroughly grounded to the engine.
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Peott, be easy to check your theory, Set the idle to 1500 or so, pull a wire of one of the front plugs and record the idle speed. Do a couple. Then do the same to a couple of the rear 4. Bet you find they all drop the rpm about the same amount if the cylinders are all in the same condition. Think about it.
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Is it possible the hot air tube in the intake is cracked/rusted out? That might allow air into the carb.
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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I was gonna ask about the pump a week ago, but I keep forgetting. Add a fuel filter to your list.
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Have you checked the valve adjustment, perhaps some of the valves are set too tight?
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By pegleg - 12 Years Ago
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Another thought comes to mind, since this seems to be heat related. Have you checked all the vacuum hoses and diaphragms for cracks. Occasionally I've seen instances where they only leak while hot, or leak MORE when hot. If the engine is borderline lean it could be just enough to create the misfire. Re-set the carb float to the factory setting, The rich at idle condition should be cured with other methods and a low float setting will affect the mixture setting everywhere in the rpm range. You risk burning a piston or valve if you let it continue as is.
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By MoonShadow - 12 Years Ago
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I had the same exact problem back in 60 with my first Y in a 57 ragtop. Stopped running as I was leaving one of the cruize drive-ins. I went back the next day and fussed with a no spark situation for hours. Finally decided to put in a complete spare set of points. When I took the screw out of the condenser the other end fell off. Burnt inside as mentioned. A darn hard problem to find on the side of the road. Fun with Fords!Chuck
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By MoonShadow - 12 Years Ago
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You can bypass the ignition switch with a jumper wire from the battery positive terminal to the + side of the coil. Then use a couple screw drivers (or a remote start button, if you have one) to jump the starter solnoid. That will eliminate the switch from the equation. Chuck
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
When I read your post I noticed you said
" The engine would start up pretty easily after quitting but would run poorly and briefly. Dwell is at 26*, initial timing at 10*, resistor and coil resistances check out correctly. The coil was quite hot again so I swapped it for an old spare I had, the one that was on the car when I bought it. It fired right up but exhibited the exact same symptoms as the other coil."
It is "the engine would restart pretty easily" part.
The ignition switch has two paths to provide 12 volts to the coil. First is in start and is STRAIGHT 12 volts.
Second is in run and provides THROUGH the ballast resistor and is 9 volts to the coil.
Try running a jumper with alligator clips ( that can be quickly disconnected ) from PLUS bat to coil and see what you get. Can`t hurt. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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By bypassing ballast and getting full 12 volt to coil is troubleshooting. Now isolate and correct the actual problem. Bad ballast. Bad ignition switch. Other. Do not run full 12 volt through a coil designed to run on 9 volts. Google it. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeot
I think your coil is overheating because of TOO LITTLE RESISTANCE from your ballast not too much. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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OK. The car that is in your garage thats works is NOT the FORD it IS the CHRYSLER. Do the same test on it and compare the results.
The VOLTAGE to the coil ( Ford or Chrysler ) should be the same. Go from there.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot,
My experience with car engine that stop running is that a fuel problem is anything but sudden and gives a lot of warning while an ignition problem is very quick. Think light switch kind of quick. On/OFF. You appear to have a quick problem so I think it is electric.
The major players in this game are. bat, IGNITION SWITCH, resistor, coil, points, condenser, GROUND WIRE inside the distriburor, wires, plugs.
When you used the jumper wire from the bat positive post to the distributor you by passed your ballast resistor and your IGNITION SWITCH. Recheck the ground on the point plate ( little braided wire)
I have the feeling that your overthinking the problem. Remember keep it simple. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot,
My bad. I left out a very important electrical player. The GROUNDS. Add a second ground from the engine to the chassis and clean the battery ground and both cable connections.
As frustrating as this is, weve all been there. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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Your car starts up and runs untill A, it warms up and then ---------?
B, the chocked up exhaust will not allow the exhaust gas to exit and it kills your engine ( the same as a potato in the exhaust pipe)
C, death rays from Mars (not my favorite) Do a Google search of symptoms of a clogged catalytic converter and compare them to what you are experiencing on your Ford.
Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot,
At this point a very simple thing I suggest you try is to reverse the wires to the coil. Nothing terrible can happen and it might give you more information about the problem. Try it and tell us what happens. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
lets try a different way to approach this. If you start with a car just like yours and it is running perfectly what would you have to do to it to make it behave the way your car does.
Since we can`t experience how your car acts can you describe it as ignition related or fuel. Can you hook up your voltmeter to the bat and read gen voltage when this happens.
Are the motor mounts allowing thje engine to tilt when you drive and effecting an engine ground strap?
Can you leave the manifold vacuum gage connected and drive and observe?
If it was an ignition problem then unburned fuel will be passed through the engine and you should be getting afterfiring ( backfire out the muffler ) and you don`t mention that. If you can not provoke afterfiring then suspect a fuel problem.
I had a strange problem that turned out to be caused by a short length ( 8 inches ) of rubber gas line that connected the gas tank to the steel fuel line to the fuel pump. The rubber hose had cracks and after running would allow the fuel pump to draw air, the engine would miss under load then would pump enough gas to fill the carb at idle so by the time I checked the carb for fuel it was full. Keep plugging away. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
Since your issue seems to be heat related, have you checked the passenger side exhaust manifold down pipe for a stuck exhaust damper? Very common. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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I NEVER did this but a potato in the exhaust will have a similar effect. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
"Pete, the potato in the exhaust will have a similar effect to what?"
If the exhaust gas can not get out as fast as the carb lets in air the car will stop running with a slow lingering death. Usually the muffler will blow out first. Pete
This was common on the cars of the early 70`s with catlytic converters when the inside collapsed and restricted the exhaust. The burned exhaust gas is mixed with the air/gas mixture in the cylinder and the result mix is beyond the ratio to ignite. EDIT
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
Be proactive! Take two potatos and put them in your exhaust pipes. DO NOT rev the engine. OBSERVE. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeot,
At this point maybe it is time for a reboot. By that I mean can you please JUST DESCRIBE EXACTLY what happens to your Ford after you start it up. Please do not try to analyse the problem JUST DESCRIBE THE SYMPTOMS. It could be so many various things happening or not happening that you have to remember we can not experience what is going on and we need you to describe it. I don`t even know what color your car is so when you say the car just dies. Is that like it is running then it is off, like I turn off the key? Or does that mean the car just dies, like it ran out of gas? In both cases the car just dies but the meaning is not the same.
The better description that you can provide the better and more accurate the advice you will receive. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot,
Now that I know your car is black with a gray interior here are some ideas. Try to think "outside the box" on this.
From your VERY COMPLETE description it seems the problem is heat related. Temp increases and the problem occures.
Blocked exhaust? Electrical resistance increases as temp increases. Check your connections and grounds. Failing battery. Do a hot load test. Bad generator when hot. Why else would turning on headlites kill the ignition? The voltage to the coil is falling below the minimum required to keep the car running. Find out why. The fact that 4 sparkplugs are dead white and 4 are carboned up could be a clue. Water in those 4 white sparkplug cylinders as the motor heats up? Try not to make the problem fit what you think it is. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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Is your coil wired backwards?
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot, I posted earlier from a notebook so I did not expand on the question of the coil being wired backward. Do a Google search on this and the symptoms you describe are all there. I lifted one so you can see it
"To answer the original question, yes it will work if connected backwards but it will not work correctly. The design is for the current to flow in 1 direction and for the circuit break to be on the negative side of the coil. If wired backwards in a points type ignition it will almost act like a flaky condenser. " Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
At this point from all the testing you have done and from the results of those test then your car should be running just fine. The only problem is that your car does not agree to run fine. Something is not right with this picture.
Your car is bewitched? Probably not.
Your tests need to be redone? Yes.
Give me a little history lesson on your car. How long have you had it? What have you done to it recently and why did you do it? Especially the electrical system. Bat, gen, wires, ignition anything. Pete
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By Pete 55Tbird - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
Normal resistance about 1k to 2.5k PER FOOT of length.
If you have ZERO your multimeter is suspect.
I was going to suggest that you concentrate on the gen, the voltage regulator, the bat cables and the battery. As heat is generated by the engione, things in your ignition GO SOUTH. That has to be a clue. Forget the theory of multiple/simulanious failures. Get better test equipment and start over. Pete
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By PF Arcand - 12 Years Ago
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As Old Car Mark observed, the mufflers are made to fit one way... why would you install the mufflers backwords ?!!
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By bird55 - 12 Years Ago
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Did you try some of the suggested exhaust problems or heat riser issues / suggestions?
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By stuey - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot
you certainly have my sympathy, the frustration must be intense.
re the white plugs on the 4 rear pots. have you got vacuum assist brakes with a leaky diahragm?
stuey
UK
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By stuey - 12 Years Ago
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good morning folks
just been reading a post from OLDCARMARK re PCV valves. have you got a PCV set up?
just a thought.
the patience of a saint comes to mind.
wishing you well
stuey
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By rgrove - 12 Years Ago
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WTH... I just typed all of this up and when i posted it it disappeared!
Anyways, my thought is that it is related to the carb. I had a very similar symptom on my 56 after i restored it, seemingly intermittent stumbling/crappy idle, slght miss under load, and sometimes it just died. I eventually traced it to very small grit in the carb plugging needles/jets/passages, etc. I tried an edelbrock 500 and the problem never came back. And that was with a new tank, lines, pump, and i had rebuilt the carb. y guess is i didnt clean out the new stuff well enough. As your car is somewhat new to you, you may have some fine grit/dirt, etc in tthe fuel system. It will behave like an ignition problem.
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By rgrove - 12 Years Ago
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By the way, where are you located?
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By rgrove - 12 Years Ago
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Hi, sorry ive been off the site for a while. To your question of me, when I took apart my carb, I didn't really find any damning evidence for dirt in the fuel/carb. A tiny bit of weird grit in the bottom of the float bowls, but nothing that was like "oh wow, there it is!". But putting on a new carb (Eddy 500) made all the difference.
One other question, you mentioned early on that you didn't know how long the car was sitting when you purchased it (correct?) I would be suspicious of the quality of the gas in the tank as well; have you filled the tank since then? Flushed anything? Replaced the flex hoses, etc? Sometimes bad gas can cause goofy behavior also. Just a thought.
It seems to me like you are on the right track looking at fuel/fuel delivery.
Was hoping you were closer to IL; I would have loaned you a known working carb ...I have an eddy 500 and a holley 570 avenger sitting around that ran fine on my car.
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By aussiebill - 12 Years Ago
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PEETOOT, got to say you are thorough and more patient than i, my only thought was your last remark re the generator, i was thinking if your battery was going bad then the generator should keep eng runing till headlite drain was too great, but if battery good then gen shouldnt effect running? Maybe.
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By aussiebill - 12 Years Ago
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Peeoot, any thoughts on vacuum leak? i would be curious what a vacuum guage showed, cold and when hot miss starts, at least its another way of narrowing things down. keep up the search.
I just added this after above reply, what year fairlane is it, some early ignition systems had black thick resistor wire from ign switch to coil and would go undetected when problem shooting, also how about changing volt regulator to rule it out? I know i,m throwing more logs on the fire but just my thoughts.
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By aussiebill - 12 Years Ago
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PEEOOT, enjoy reading your journey on this, glad its not me, but if it were after what you describe, i would dismantle carb and blow out all passages etc, reset float level, restart car and reset idle mixture screws noteing any difference to before, then reset timing after establishing timing marks are correct then start from there, just what i am thinking and would do, hope this may help. bill.
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By aussiebill - 12 Years Ago
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Mr exceptional patience ! My thoughts ( 2 cents) are try higher idle setting and retest, try more advance and retest, it seems like it could be flooding a little as symptoms are similar, but we all will wait for next installment!
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By aussiebill - 12 Years Ago
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312T85Bird (6/5/2013)
I have responded several times about a broken wire instde the insulation having been my problem for the sameissues but it never gets posted??? My was the breaker plate ground wire, maube they will post this some day so that you can check it out.
312T85Bird
He checked that in the earlier posts.
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By miker - 12 Years Ago
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Just as a thought, have you had the dwell meter on the car and watched it as the miss/stall developed. I once had a set of points the got "sticky", and failed to follow the cam in the dizzy when hot. Brand new. I finally went back to check them on a hot motor, but as I bumped it over, I saw them hang open. Didn't do it cold. Dwell meter would have shown it, though.
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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You have looked at just about everything anyone could suggest.I have one suggestion.Find someone who has a professional scope and do a scope check on it.You are missing something obscure by the sounds of it.To keep replacing compinents and guessing isn't finding the problem.A scope test should be able to test various components when the car is running especially if you can get it to act up while its being tested.Just a suggestion.
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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Yes.Someone who specilializes in tuneup/electrical would have a proper scope setup.
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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If it was antifreeze you would notice the rad level dropping when it cools off.You have driven it enough that you would notice by now the coolant level dropping.
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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Do you have a phenolic spacer between carb and intake or just the thin carb gasket?
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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Is it a metal spacer or fiber type spacer?
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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You have looked at everything else.I would.There is a reason why they are marked inlet and outlet.
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By oldcarmark - 12 Years Ago
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Did you do anything about the mufflers on backwards?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Took the fairlane out for its first lengthy drive in warmer weather. It was definitely running warmer than before but not outside of the "ok" bar on the gauge. Got a ways out when I started getting random misfiring at idle. From that point things got worse pretty rapidly and I was getting lots of random misses at all engine speeds. I pulled over at one point to let everything cool off with the hood open, the coil was too hot to touch for long. I waited about 15 min and there was slight improvement. I limped it home and parked it.
I thought maybe the ignition was seeing too much voltage due to the 15+ volts the (new) regulator was set at. Prior to this drive I'd reset the voltage at 80*F to just under 15, at the middle of the spec'd range per the manual. I rechecked output today and it was well over 15 again. I reset it to a little over 13, which is much less than spec'd. With all the lights and the blower on, engine at about 1000 rpm, the number was about 12.8. Even with the engine at idle speed, the coil was seeing about 10V.
After a while of running like this I started getting random misfires until the engine quit. I tried bypassing the resistor but it wasn't totally clear whether that helped. I think it might've. Still, I don't know why the coil would need more than 10V. I checked the voltage drop through the points using my ancient Engine Analyzer, and the drop was less than 0.2V. The engine would start up pretty easily after quitting but would run poorly and briefly. Dwell is at 26*, initial timing at 10*, resistor and coil resistances check out correctly. The coil was quite hot again so I swapped it for an old spare I had, the one that was on the car when I bought it. It fired right up but exhibited the exact same symptoms as the other coil.
I haven't tried replacing the condenser this time, but here's what bugs me: resistor, coil, points, condenser, plugs, dist cap and rotor, and wires have all been replaced in less than 1000 miles. The coil, an Autozone unit, has been replaced under warranty once in an effort to rule it out as a bad unit. My other car, a 1962 Chrysler, got all of these components replaced exactly once and has never had a hiccup in a couple thousand miles over several years; its coil is also mounted laying down on the engine. I don't want to believe that all of the ignition parts I can buy at the local store are unreliable junk.
Any ideas what I'm missing here?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Thanks oldcarmark. What kind of scope are you referring to? An oscilloscope?
Some of this reminds me of the past so I reviewed the following 2 topics from when I had my 292-powered '59 Galaxie:
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic28025.aspx
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic49335.aspx?PageIndex=2#bm49567
The first topic sounds remarkably similar so I will try swapping in a new condenser tomorrow. I distinctly remember the second topic, though, and how the new coil "fixed" it. That Accel Super Stock coil is what I run in the Chrysler. It is oil filled but at least in that car it doesn't seem to be a problem to lay it on its side.
IF replacing the condenser fixes it, though, I'm going to ask if ya'll can recommend a source for a condenser of reliable quality. I think it is strange that I have had 2 y-block Fords and had what appear to be the exact same ignition problems with both of them. I mention the Chrysler only because I'm buying my replacement parts from the same source without the same problems. I just want to replace a part and know that I can rule out that part as faulty rather than all of this second-guessing.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Today I found that everything stays OK as long as the engine stays above 1000rpm. Below that speed, the coil will get too hot and break down, at which point the problem will persist until it cools off.
This time, swapping in a cool coil for a hot one made an immediate difference. I monitored coil temperature and found that it is usually around 140*F on the hot engine. The coil quits around 150*.
I think if I moved the coil off of the engine to a cooler area it would be ok, but I want to keep it where it is.
Can anyone recommend a reliable replacement coil that can handle the heat of the engine and laying on its side?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete, I did as you suggested and found that the car would continue to run with full voltage to the coil, even with the coil upwards of 150*F.
I proceeded to check the primary ignition wiring for voltage drop. There was a total drop of 0.3V from battery to resistor, and about half of that was in the wire from the ignition switch to the resistor, which is strange because it was showing 0.1 ohms of resistance. Voltage drop to ground from the coil was 0.22V.
I don't understand why bypassing the resistor is "fixing" it. The manual indicates that a minimum of 8.5V at the coil is necessary. I have never seen a reading below 9.5V, even through the resistor.
I suppose what I'll do is run a new wire from the ign switch to the resistor and see whether that takes care of it.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I think there is more resistance in the primary circuit than there should be, and am going to work to fix that.
Could excessive resistance (and thus, voltage drop) in the primary circuit cause a coil to run hot?
I still think the coil is overheating. Now I'm trying to figure out why.
Incidentally, after driving around my Chrysler and getting it good and hot, I noticed that the coil was only a little warm and not at all hot. The coil on that engine is, however, mounted in front of the carburetor where the airflow from the fan hits it pretty directly.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Hoosier, thanks for that simple and obvious suggestion! I was thinking about buying one like it; never occurred to me to try a simple swap!
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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slick56, yes, I have actually installed 3 different new condensers, haha. A bit overkill but I wanted to be sure that wasn't the trouble.
tnguynaford, I have indeed checked the distributor mechanical components out. Took it all apart, cleaned and lubed everything, checked for dwell variation, and everything looked good the whole time.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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This problem is RESOLVED!
The continuation of the discussion can be found in this thread: http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic83672.aspx
The long and short of it, though, is that replacing the wiring inside the distributor, from distributor to coil, and from resistor to coil fixed all of the symptoms.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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OldTGuy, I have manual brakes.312T85Bird, I always use a dwell meter to set the points. Dwell is set at 26*.
Today I tried the absolute last things I could think of. I bought another rebuild kit and pulled the air horn to check the booster passages for the hundredth time and to replace the little gaskets they seat on. As has been the case all along, there was no trash or sediment in the bowls or in any of the passages. I wanted to replace the gaskets because they looked wet and I thought maybe some fuel was short-circuiting past the idle air bypass and air bleed, resulting in an over-rich idle mixture. The gaskets were dry after that but no change was evident. So, since the original carb had a different set of booster venturis (a superceding part number according to my data sheet) and metering rods (same), I swapped the primary boosters and metering rods into the "new" carb after making sure they were clean and clear too. There was a slight change in which setting the engine preferred but the symptoms were the same in the end.
So, I am abandoning the '57 AFB. I hate that I'm abandoning it because I cannot come up with a satisfactory explanation for why. The only conclusion that I have left to draw is that the non-adjustable aspects of calibration, specifically the idle jet size and the bypass, economizer, and air bleed hole sizes, are incorrect for satisfactory operation with modern fuel. This troubles me greatly because every other old car I have owned ('59 galaxie, '59 Thunderbird, '66 Mustang, '63 Comet, '77 Malibu, '62 Chrysler, '70 Dodge, etc) and really any other one I've worked on with original equipment carburetors, some with obvious wear in the throttle shafts, has been able to perform satisfactorily with original spec calibration and nothing more than cleaning and a rebuild kit. The '70 Dodge is a daily driver right now with its original carb and at least 120k miles.
I have an autolite 4100 on its way to me now. Perhaps foolishly, I bought a correct '57 312 unit. Here's to hoping there will at least be a different set of problems in place of the present ones.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I know the heat riser itself is not an issue because I removed the butterfly valve. Only the shaft remains. I have not put any potatoes in the exhaust, but I am confident that the exhaust itself is not at fault.
I just went through the valve adjustment carefully, using the 1/4 turn method which I just discovered. I really liked it! I had done it previously with a very narrow, small set of feeler gauges that came with a points set I bought one time. I felt like my results were more consistent using the 1/4 turn method, and certainly the valvetrain sounded the best it ever has when I was through. Thanks to this forum for that tip!
Unfortunately, it didn't fix my problem.
Things have changed enough overall that I think it's worth starting from scratch now. If it would be more appropriate to do so in a new post, I'd be happy to. If not, here are the current symptoms:
1. When the engine is thoroughly warmed up, the car idles beautifully until it is put into gear, at which point it stalls immediately.
2. If the car is driven for a while, when I come to a stop, it will probably idle nicely for 5-10 seconds, then surge for about 5 seconds, then stall.
3. If I'm rolling along with minimal throttle, say, steady 25 mph, and I stab the pedal to maybe 50%, it will respond immediately with a rush of power which immediately becomes rough and uneven. If I hold the pedal steady, it will fight its way through the roughness until the engine speed reaches something like 2500 rpm (I'm guessing, forgot to look at tach) at which point it will pretty much clear up and continue to accelerate more normally. The roughness lasts several seconds.
After a drive I pulled plugs 1 and 3 and both looked "normal."
I need to test for symptom #3 with the vacuum advance disconnected because it could easily be timing-related. I am still pretty certain that the 1 and 2 and possibly 3 are carburetor issues.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Aussiebill, it's true that if I keep my foot on the pedal (essentially raising the idle) I can keep it going. Thing is, if I raise it enough to get it to run in gear, it will really slam when I shift it from neutral, which is not good for it, nor normal. Once it gets really hot it is hard to keep it running at all, let alone getting it into gear.
312T85bird, I have seen that post several times and responded to it the first two times you posted it. I appreciate your input!
Oldcarmark, not yet. Still not sure it's necessary, but more on that in a bit.
Pete, I don't follow you on the first line of your post there. I did your google search though and read up on the symptoms.
Today's installment: Drove car in large road loop. Didn't wait for it to warm up before leaving and didn't change anything. Went straight to a 55mph road and found that there was no trouble accelerating with any amount of throttle once the engine was already above about 2200 rpm. So it seems that the acceleration issue is probably just the accelerator pump after all. It works but I guess the shot is a bit too lean for the engine to effectively make the transition at lower engine speeds. No matter, I have 2 new pumps to try.
Made it back to the driveway without stalling, parked in driveway and like I described last post took a few seconds to stall out. Started it back up and let it run in park, got under the car with a temp probe to look at the temp before and after the mufflers. I checked within 3" of the muffler case on either end, and depending on which exact spots I probed, I saw a temp difference range of 15-60*F. The outlet side usually gave a number around 185 and the inlet gave anywhere from 200 to 250. I suppose the highest number is the most valid one. The mufflers are 18" long with the intended inlet offset and the intended outlet centered, but they are installed backward to fit. It took a pretty long time but eventually it did start running worse until it made an abrupt shut-down. It became difficult to start and keep running. I had to put it on the fast idle cam to keep it running at all, and it missed a lot at first but that diminished after about 20 seconds of fast idling. At this point I wrapped my hand with a rag and held it behind each pipe. There is definitely some pressure at the tailpipe but not especially much. The pipes are 2", I'm not sure what sort of velocity I should be expecting out of them, but I made the same check on my Buick 3.3 V6 (single pipe) and it didn't seem different from the Fairlane.
So, they definitely aren't completely clogged. Maybe being backward restricts the flow enough to raise the temp at the crossover enough to cause carburetor problems. I don't know. The only way to be sure is to remove/replace them.
I didn't get to try driving with the vacuum advance disconnected this time. I get 1 trip then she's done. If the mufflers ARE restricting flow then I'm curious how much stronger the engine will feel, as it already pulls pretty hard. I really like this car. I will really, really like it when it works properly.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Made another test loop with no change in symptoms except that I noticed a little bit of missing under light load uphill, low speed. It wasn't until I returned home that I realized I had the vacuum advance disconnected, so at least we know that over-advancing has nothing to do with this.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Installed a new ballast resistor with no change in symptoms.
Installed a brand new Edelbrock 1405 that I borrowed. I warmed the vehicle up to the point of the trouble showing up then swapped the carbs. It behaved the same.
So if it's a fuel delivery problem, then neither the fuel pump, carburetor, or filter can be to blame. Unlikely.
I lightly pressurized the exhaust with the engine hot and carb off to check for crossover leakage into the intake; I could not detect any. That's it for any theory I can come up with pertaining to the mechanical side.
The only part of the ignition system I haven't replaced or re-replaced are the ignition switch and the primary wiring. I have not been able to find any problems with these parts but seeing as I haven't been able to find problems with ANY parts and a problem exists, I guess I'll proceed.
Strongly considering installing a Pertronix ignitor as well. I have no problem with points but if this ends up being something like a string of shoddy condensers (the one part I have no way of testing whatsoever) I'd just as soon quit playing roulette with critical ignition components.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Stuey, thanks for the well-wishing! I do not have PCV, just the original road draft tube.
Moonshadow, I looked back through old posts and realized I had already tried that and (surprise!) it made no difference.
Reviewing those old posts was really helpful. There is more consistency than I realized.
Ultimately, I think the best way to describe the trouble is a lack of power at hot idle. Turning on the headlights and putting the engine into gear both put a load on the idling engine, and if it is not making enough power, it will stall, just as a manual trans car will stall if you let the clutch out too quickly without adding any throttle (power).
In order to make power at idle, it is necessary that the right mixture of fuel and air be supplied, that the engine is in good enough condition to compress that mixture at low speed, and that an ignition spark of sufficient strength occurs at the proper time.
The compression test and vacuum readings lead me to believe that the mechanical condition of the engine is good enough to give a quality idle. I have certainly had better performance from an engine with much worse vacuum, compression, etc.
The fuel and air mixture question is hard to answer without a tailpipe sniffer. I see no reason why my carburetor, which is designed specifically for use with this engine, would not be getting the job done. Yet I have noticed that the best idle performance occurs when the throttle plates are open so far as to take the carb into the transition slot zone. Indeed, it is happiest when the mixture screws themselves are nearly seated. I am certain that the passages for the idle circuit are clear, so I cannot account for why the engine will not run with the throttle plates closer to seated, where (the manual says) they belong. If the carb cannot, or doesn't(for reasons I can't detect), put out the needed mixture, the idling engine will not make enough power to handle the load of the charging generator or the transmission.
As for spark strength and timing, I have given the ignition system every excuse to make the best spark it can. I observed the spark out of the coil while cranking last night and it looked exactly the same on the Fairlane as on my Chrysler. I need to try to observe the spark produced by the running engine but am not sure how to go about that without getting zapped. Timing-wise, I have tried over- and under-advancing without discovering a solution to this issue.
2 things give the engine enough power to idle under load: boosting the spark (voltage? Current?) by skipping the resistor, and (over)enriching the fuel mixture. Overenriching the mixture results in a more consistent, even idle, but still not as good an idle as I get when the engine is cool. I have read that a rich mixture is easier to burn than a lean one. Consequently, both of these 2 things point to one ultimate cause of the problem: a weak hot spark. A stronger spark could burn the lean hot mixture rather than misfire.
So why is the spark weak? I don't know. All of the components are new. The points are adjusted properly. There is adequate voltage to the coil (more than 8.5V), and the voltage on the negative side agrees with the dwell meter that good, regular switching is occurring at the points. Adding a jumper wire from the + battery terminal to the input side of the resistor doesn't help. I cannot find a problem.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete,
I removed the plate but left the shaft and spacer. The shaft was completely locked up. If there were a crack in the intake between the carb passages and the exhaust crossover, would it be visually obvious?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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The spacer is the original fiber type.
Pete, the potato in the exhaust will have a similar effect to what?
I am finding now that the longer I let it go it gets harder and harder to keep it running at all, forget about going into gear. I have to prime it and put the throttle on the top step of the fast idle cam to get it to start; then, if I leave it on the second step around 900 RPM it will stay running indefinitely, with occasional hiccups. If it is allowed to idle at 800 rpm it will quit after a time. It can't run at 600 rpm at all when it's hot. It acts lean, but if I open the mixture screws at all it slows down and the plugs get sooty AND it will stall. I lowered the float, no help. I didn't go through the valve adjustment again but the vacuum gauge needle is perfectly steady except when it hiccups. Plus I have been through that adjustment many times already. I opened up the new carb, whose float bowls were immaculate prior to installation, and they remain spotless, which is to say that there is no evidence of trash or sediment getting in, and I'm positive that all carb passages are completely clear. All of the parts (nozzles, jets, metering rods, etc) are correct.
This thing MUST be POSSESSED. Maybe I need to start pushing it around a junkyard and watching it fix itself.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I think I mentioned before that both mufflers are installed backward. There is definitely still exhaust flowing through them. I have assumed this could not be a significant factor. Should I reconsider?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I'll look into this. It seems unlikely that they are starving the engine with backpressure because I have hit it pretty hard at highway speeds (pulling past 4k rpm) with plenty of power and responsiveness in the past; however, I can imagine that perhaps being backward is raising the temperature in the manifold crossover and, by extension, the carburetor. Evidence suggests that the difference between trouble and no trouble MIGHT be 20*F or less.
I think whoever put them on backward did so because of the inlet/outlet configuration. They should've used a different muffler, obviously.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Also, this is an interesting read.
http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Ethanoluse.htm
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I have some updates after a brief break from this trouble.
First, about float setting: I had been setting the level at the end of the float just past the rounded corner, measuring from the raised seam around the circumference of the float. The manual says "top center" and my Carter info sheet says "top center at end of float." The last thing I did before today was to set the float to spec at the top center center of the float instead of the end. This lowered the level by a small amount, about 1/64". At the time I didn't notice any difference so I parked the car and walked away.
Today I made no adjustments but drove the car around the neighborhood to warm it up with plans to check valve adjustment hot and also to try to rule out exhaust crossover leakage inside the intake. It was still idling ok after my loop, just a bit slow, so I turned the speed up a bit and went for another loop. At this point everything was good and hot, but it was still idling in gear ok. After that loop I pulled into the driveway fully expecting a stall but it didn't. It was running in gear with no missing, but it was surging irregularly between 450-550 rpm. The only thing I changed since last week was slightly lowering the float, but I think the ambient temp is a bit cooler today too, so there's that.
Anyway, I tried to get rid of the surging by playing with the mixture and idle speed while idling in gear, hot (how nice to be able to do that for once!). What I found was that it was best if I completely closed one mixture screw and had the other out about .25 turns. If I completely closed both it would die. With the screws set that way, however, even in neutral the car would start and die immediately like old times. If I opened up the screws again, it would start and run, but was obviously too rich. The plugs are now consistently black and fluffy looking.
It is acting like the idle bleeds are clogged but they aren't. The throttle plates have to be open fairly far to admit enough air to make power for idling in gear, but the engine speed in gear is too low to effectively draw fuel from the transfer slots so the idle isn't stable. The mixture screws have to be cracked open to assist fuel delivery at that speed or it will stall, but they seem to emit only raw fuel without air premix so they can't be open very far at all OR they will cause a stall from over-richness. It is a delicate balance which, if set just right, lets the car run in gear, but not smoothly like it should. I cannot achieve adequate engine speed or power by closing the throttle plates and opening the mixture screws (which is to say, opening the mixture screws beyond .5 turns never results in an increase in engine speed).
The problem of intermittent missing under moderate to heavy throttle acceleration also has proven to be consistent. I'm pretty sure these problems are related. I have tried dropping the floats an additional 1/64" to the bottom of the spec range, but no change is evident at this point. Timing is still set at 10-12*, and reducing that number slows the engine while raising it increases engine speed. It shouldn't be this hard to set things straight.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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New pump is on but it didn't help. Checked spark signal again and still rock-steady. When car would quit, I tried restarting it several times without "helping" by messing with the throttle. Then, I opened both mixture screws a half turn and repeated. I kept doing this until finally it started and kept running at 3.5 turns from seated. It continued to run, fully hot, for as long as I let it.
I got the hose and soaked the entire manifold/carb base area while running to make sure once and for all there wasn't some huge vacuum leak I was missing; it didn't miss a beat except a little bit when I wet the throttle shaft ends. Tried putting it in gear and it was very lumpy and quit before long. I advanced the timing to 12* and that helped. Found out I could COMPLETELY back the idle speed screw off and it would continue to idle pretty well around 475 rpm.
So it appears I need a new carburetor. I talked with these guys http://www.carburetorsforless.com/index.html about their rebuild service and it sounded like it might be worth letting them do it. I am thinking I might prefer to source an autolite 4100 instead though as I have always been a fan of that design. In the mean time I will try to find a semi-permanent block-off for the secondaries and maybe block the choke inlet off too to make it usable. I guess some leakage at the plates, shafts, and choke is permissible but my unit is simply too far gone.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I have another 2441SA '57 AFB on the way to try. Went through mine with a fine-toothed comb today and found no problems (of course). Studied the AFB on my Chrysler and found that it seems to bleed air through the secondaries about the same amount as the Ford but it is happy with 3/4 turn mixture and has no drivability problems. Replaced rubber portion of fuel line and tightened fittings to eliminate possibility of sucking air.
Can't wait to post the solution to this. It is ridiculous.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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rgrove, I hate it when the 'net swallows posts!! Sorry that happened.
Your case sounds exactly like mine. Were you able to prove that it was small grit, or was that just your conclusion based on the fact that another carb fixed it? Mine is really acting like the fuel flow is restricted but it's hard to account for when I can run water through it and see strong steady flow where it ought to be. It's almost like the air bleeds in the booster nozzle assembly are too large, or the idle jet is too small, but the part numbers are correct and there are no signs of tampering. Maybe the little gaskets under the nozzles aren't sealing properly? I could always try double-stacking them...
I'm located in central NC.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Just gave the "new" carb a run and there is improvement but not a solution. Ugh.
The new carb's throttle shafts are noticeably tighter than the old one's. The secondary plates seemed to seat a bit better too but it's hard to say. The improvements are as follows: generally much better idle, best mixture at about 3/4 turn from seated, fuel emitting from the booster venturis far more readily (puzzling since every measurable test and adjustment gave equal results on both units). Problem symptoms are improved too, as in the missing is less frequent and less severe.
What remains the same is that when the engine gets really hot, like when it sits at idle after a few miles of driving, temp needle above the halfway mark where it normally lives, the idle quality diminishes and it loses its ability to idle in gear. It is still sensitive to mixture screw adjustment at this point, and it still runs fastest/highest vacuum at 3/4 turn, but it will actually miss less (and run slower) at a richer setting. Regardless, even if I idle up to 800 rpm in neutral, it will stall when I put it in gear. Before I left on the test drive, when the engine was warm enough for the thermostat to open already and choke wide open, it would idle in gear smoothly below 500 rpm.
I tried punching the throttle on the drive to see whether everything was kosher under max load, but it wasn't. It didn't stumble but it felt like it was fighting itself a bit, not exactly missing but some surging perhaps. It seemed to mostly clear up if I held it long enough to get into higher rpms. I'm not ready to blame that on the carb yet though as it could be timing related (seeing as both carbs acted like that).
I wonder if this is a modern fuel volatility problem? On this early AFB, the mixture screws are parallel to the base of the carb and screw in basically as close to the bottom of the carb as possible. All other AFBs I've ever seen have the screws at a 45* angle which would move the fuel passage a little farther from the engine heat. Also, the heated air from the choke stove is drawn through a gap immediately in contact with the mixture screw bores, intended by design to heat the carb there to prevent icing. On my Chrysler the mixture screws sit at 45* and the choke is the well-type so no hot air is drawn into it at all. Maybe on the Ford the fuel is boiling in the idle circuit. Does that sound plausible?
Pretty much out of ideas at this point.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Chiggerfarmer, thanks for that suggestion. I tried dropping the floats a little today and I noticed a change but not an improvement (nor a worsening, per se). Perhaps I'll try dropping them even lower soon.
oldcarmark, yes, I have the original phenolic spacer in place.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I've wondered about that. Figured if they were a problem it would show up in the compression test, but maybe it cooled down enough in the time it took to pull all the plugs and install the tester. Also figured it would show up on the vacuum gauge as a steady dip. Still, I know the rocker shafts are pretty worn so it's worth another look.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete55, it sure does feel bewitched! But of course it can't be. There IS a solution. Some detail is being overlooked. I am testing to isolate ONE issue at a time, but what if I have 2 minor issues simultaneously? If so, I never see a problem in the testing, because BOTH factors must be considered. For example, if there is a problem in the primary wiring before AND after the resistor, then inserting a jumper wire in either half by itself might not eliminate the trouble. But to answer your question: I have had the car since last Septemberish. The engine was locked up and it had sat unused for years, not sure really how long. Everything on the car was original when I bought it. It came with an extra starter and 2 extra generators. Major work since I bought it was unsticking and re-ringing the engine, replacing all transmission seals, overhauling brakes. I believe that this problem I'm dealing with has been here since day 1 of my ownership and that before I posted about this I simply hadn't driven it enough for it to show up as a consistent problem. I had several instances of irregular behavior such as idle issues at night, stalling in gear, or the engine dying as I rolled into my parking place, but they did not happen every drive so I didn't try to lock them down. Electrical work I've done includes replacing the regulator, replacing all ignition components, replacing some fuses and bulbs, replacing battery, disassembling, cleaning, lubing, and adjusting the distributor (original). I replaced the regulator because of charging voltages well over 15V. The new regulator behaved the same, so I adjusted it lower. One day recently my charging light stayed on so I swapped the old regulator back in and it is currently installed. Now I'm seeing charging voltage around 14.5V. I replaced the coil because it was old and the resistor because it was original. I will also note that when the engine was apart I took the generator apart to inspect the brushes, bearings, and windings. It was pretty nasty with oily filth so I cleaned the housing with degreaser, being careful around the fields but removing as much junk as possible. I haven't examined or tried either of the spare generators.
Stuey, I appreciate your sympathy! This is the most obstinate problem I have faced to date with any old-technology car. But I don't have power brakes.
Miker, I think I've watched the dwell during problem time but I will definitely take a closer look tomorrow. Sticky points could produce the symptoms.
Master Cylinder, thanks but the coil is definitely for external resistor. I have tried using a 0.8-ohm resistor in place of the standard 1.3-ohm unit and even then the problem was the same. I have also observed trouble with a steady coil voltage between 10 and 11 volts which was why I was so suspicious of coil failure.
At night, engine running, the resistor element was hot enough to glow softly. Is that normal?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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The plug wires on the car have no resistance, as in less than 1 ohm. Could that be a factor?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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The old wires were non-suppression type with a copper stranded core. The new ones I put on are carbon-conductor suppression wires with resistance as you describe. The new wires made no difference.
I reversed the coil connections and there may have been very slight improvement but by no means night and day. Still intermittently missing, still stalls in gear with or without lights on.
Pulled carburetor air horn and rechecked float level, gas level, and booster assemblies for blockages; everything was happy.
I am going to replace the negative battery cable because I can't get it to clamp so tightly that I can't remove it without tools. I am probably going to try a new point set and possibly cap/rotor as well.
Noticed while cranking with cap off and ignition enabled that there was a tiny white-blue spark across the points. Normal, or trouble?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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wlj1943, thanks for the suggestion. I just checked voltage drop through the switch at 0.035V. Drop from battery terminal to input side of resistor is .28V so the switch is a minor contributor. I tried jiggling the key while watching the meter and the voltage drop didn't change.
Removed distributor, swapped out condenser and brand new points, removed ground wire and checked all other distributor wiring for continuity while bending and twisting. Set up points at 27*, dwell variation not more than 1*, initial timing 8*. No change in symptoms.
At this point I believe the coil, points, and condenser have been thoroughly ruled out, as have the plug wires. It is also clear that the primary circuit is not breaking up as I have never once seen the voltage into nor out of the coil make sudden changes at the point of engine breakdown. I have been watching those voltages with an analog meter so that any change would be very easy to spot.
It seems unlikely that the cap and rotor could be at fault but I'm prepared to replace them as a pair rather than piecemeal.
Voltage drop on + side of primary circuit is .28; on - side, .158. I think those numbers are good enough not to be causing this trouble; what do you think?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Just thought I'd mention that I discovered a bad miss above light throttle too. Drove to the gas station to fill up and on the way back any time I stabbed at the throttle (which I seldom do) it would respond instantly but nearly as instantly it would miss hard, definite lack of power. I have not observed this before today. Light throttle was ok but anything more than that, even after I held it for a while, would result in missing.
New cap and rotor and fixed the battery cable so it would tighten up snugly but no improvement.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete, I think your strange problem might be very closely related to mine.
Had a breakthrough after my last post because I tried a different timing light. My dad has a very high-quality metal light with a metal-cased pickup coil; mine, which I've been using all this time, is all plastic.
Anyway, I put my dad's timing light on the coil wire like usual and lo and behold, the ignition signal looked perfect. No blink-outs whatsoever. I watched it while the engine shook and stumbled and died and there was never a hiccup.
So, all of my tests now point to this not being an ignition issue. That leaves mechanical and fuel.
Since the compression is excellent and I've been through the valve adjustment many times, AND last night I went over the manifold and carb with a propane can AND a water mister looking for vacuum leaks and found none, this looks like fuel and not mechanical.
As I've said the carb always has gas in it when I take the lid off and I set the float heights meticulously. Confirmed yesterday that all passages are clear. The fuel pump moves a good volume of fuel when I disconnect the line and spin the motor...
I raised the float height 1/64" to the upper limit of the spec, no difference. Then I took the bottom off the fuel pump to examine the little valves inside. There was a sort of skin of stuff in there. This pump was on the car when I bought it and the valves were sticking shut at initial startup. It has trouble drawing the tank down the rest of the way when it hits a quarter tank. Maybe it isn't delivering the necessary volume when I can't see, or the necessary pressure, which I can't test. Either way, I'm replacing it ASAP and we'll see what happens.
There are two plugs on the rear of the carb bowls labeled as "sight plugs", and though there is nothing in my info saying the fuel level should be close to or flush with those plugs, it appears to me to be considerably lower than them. Also if the fuel level in the carb is low it accounts for why I have to open the mixture screws out so far. Feeling optimistic
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I found another way to check it. I put some clear packing tape over the secondary ports between the spacer and the carb gasket. The result was the absolute best idle I've had yet. The mixture screws liked being out 3/4 turn as opposed to 2 turns and it was rock steady in gear even under 500 rpm. It also felt a little more responsive and quieter on the road. Even so, after enough time, it started to miss and then quit without the resistor bypassed.
What that test, and today's testing, have shown me is that I'm dealing with 2 different problems simultaneously. I concretely observed cases of the idle quality breaking down leading to a stall with a dead-steady ignition signal observed at the timing light; I ALSO concretely observed cases of the ignition signal very quickly going from good to flaky to gone.
The first problem is the carb. The packing tape was just to test and it didn't like the environment very much, though it didn't break during the test period. So, I spent some time working with the secondary throttle plates and shaft, adding a sealing o-ring to the shaft and shining light through the barrels in a dark room to find the best seat for the plates. The best I could do was still imperfect, and it was clear a perfect seat was impossible, so I went with it. Mounted back up, it would run smoothly at 650 rpm in neutral with the mixture screws out 1.75 turns, but no matter what mixture or reasonable speed in gear it would sputter here and there, and if I let it idle in gear long enough, usually not more than 2 minutes, it would have enough concurrent sputters to stall. This was the case of stalling where I saw it happen with a perfect ignition signal. I repeated this scenario several times and it was consistent. It is the same as a moderate vacuum leak and the leak is internal to the carb. I might get around it by going to a manual or electric choke and plugging the pickup tube, which would lessen the lean air intake.
The second problem is what I need to figure out, and it's definitely electrical. I let it idle for at least 30 minutes AFTER fully warmed up around 650 rpm in neutral and it was a-ok the entire time. 14.5V at battery, 10.3ish at the coil, coil temp around 120*. I had a series of tests to try but I never got past the first one. I turned on the headlights and within a minute the spark quit. In order to get it going again I had to rev the engine up for a few seconds and slowly bringing it back down to idle; then it was very stable again. I tried this several times and it was very consistent; the headlight always killed the spark and it always took some higher speed running to recover if I started it up again shortly after the stall. I watched the voltages on these tests and the headlights always brought the battery voltage down from 14.5 to around 13, but the coil continued to see 10V right up to the point of stalling. If I ran the engine at fast idle speeds, close to 1000 rpm, having the headlights on did not cause ignition breakdown. Next I tried repeating the test with a spare wire from the + battery terminal to the input side of the resistor, short-circuiting the ignition switch and related wiring. The goal was to eliminate potential unwanted resistance in that circuit, but it made no difference. Then I attempted to check the current the coil was drawing by placing my meter in series between the resistor and coil. It drew 3.7A at rest (should be 4.5) but I couldn't get the car to run with the meter in place so I was unable to check running amperage. Then I had to stop. The last time I watched the spark quit with headlights on, I checked the coil temp and it was 152*.
Maybe the generator cannot make enough current at 700 engine rpm to satisfy both the lights and the ignition system, OR perhaps one or both of those systems is drawing more current than it should.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Guys, let me just take a second to thank you again for your thoughtful consideration and willingness to help with this problem. I know I write long posts; my aim is to catalogue the issue as clearly as possible so as to be helpful if anyone else gets stuck in the same rut. So many problem threads on the web wind up unfinished with no solution posted--I hope not to contribute to that trend.
Aussiebill, you make a good point. The battery should be able to run the car for longer than a minute with the lights on even if the gen isn't working.
pegleg, I am using an aftermarket choke stove strapped to the exhaust manifold because the original heat passage was rusted out like you describe.
Pete, I kept things as simple as possible this time. From cold start, let engine run at fast idle until hot air was coming through the radiator, right about 10 minutes. Everything was fine except for the very occasional single miss. Once warm, I took the engine down to hot idle in neutral, around 750-800 rpm. Engine idled this way for 15 minutes with no trouble except a rare single miss. I turned on the headlights and it continued to idle no trouble for about 5 minutes. I turned the lights back off and let it continue to run. 5 minutes later, now 40 minutes since cold startup, the engine started to miss irregularly. Sometimes maybe 10 or 15 seconds would pass without a miss at all; then, misses would occur anywhere from once per second to 5 times per second for a period of maybe 10-15 seconds. Then, it would not miss again for another 5-15 seconds. Each time it would have a "missing fit" I thought it would stall, but after another 10 minutes of observation, it didn't. The missing continued in irregular "fits" followed by brief periods of smoothness throughout the 10 minutes. Then, I turned the headlights on and there was an immediate cluster of misses, slowing the engine to a stall. At the 40 minute mark, when the missing pattern started, I watched the spark with the timing light and it blinked out consistent with every miss. I also watched it when I turned the lights on the last time and saw the spark miss and slow with the engine speed until stopped (which took maybe 3 seconds after I turned the lights on).
And the car is black with a grey interior
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete,
It is hard not to make the problem fit what I think it is, haha. It makes sense that when a thorough exploration fails to expose a problem that the exploration is in the wrong area.
The battery is new; still, running with a charger connected should test the charging system theory. Personally I think that the reason why turning on the headlights kills the engine is that once the misfire pattern has begun, the added load of the generator due to the higher electrical demand tends to slow the engine moreso than without that load so whenever a miss occurs the engine speed decreases that much more and pushes it "over the edge" to a stall. It was on the edge of stalling during most of the missing fits. Before the missing began it handled running with the lights on just fine.
After I posted that last one I went back out and triple-checked connections at battery, grounds, and in ignition wiring and found no problems. To confirm the results of last time, I tried a different coil again and again it made no difference. Voltage to the coil is not dropping below 10 volts even with the lights on.
Your suggestion of water in the back 4 is one I have not been willing to consider but it's time I did a compression test, maybe one before the missing shows up and one after. I have not mentioned that there is almost always some amount of visible emissions from the pipes. During yesterday's running it would come and go, disappearing completely sometimes and then reappearing moderately or weakly. It looks just like the normal vapor you see as the hot exhaust clears out condensation in the pipes. Perhaps it's small amounts of antifreeze bleeding in.
The exhaust isn't blocked, but I know the mufflers were installed backward! Silly previous owners.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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The compression numbers are in, from 1-8: 167,161,161,156,158,160,160,155. All 8 cylinders got very close to their final number after 3 compression strokes. I was not at all expecting them to be that good or consistent as this was a quick clean-and-rering job. #8 was rusted stuck when I purchased the car and there were pits in the cylinder wall from the rust when I put it together. The piston is a used standard piece. Those numbers were taken after driving the car around until I started having idle problems. Factory spec is 160 psi.
oldcarmark, I have actually been monitoring the coolant level as it dropped at one point, but there have been a couple minor hose leaks which were the likely culprits. Hard to say whether the level has changed since, so it can't have changed by much.
aussiebill, my car is a '57 and there is not a resistor wire. I had a new regulator installed when these problems cropped up; I have since switched back to the old one!!
When I left the car it was behaving exactly as it would if the resistor had shorted open. But I know that that isn't happening.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete, the coil is wired correctly. Because my old post about hot running problems sounded exactly the same and was solved by replacing the coil I returned my coil as defective and installed a brand new accel super stock, and now I'm 100% sure this is not a coil problem. Because that coil is a little smaller in diameter i insulated it from the clamp with a thin layer of rubber from an old bicycle tube, which may help a little with keeping it cool.
312t85bird, thanks for that suggestion. I tried manipulating the wire while looking for continuity and there was no break.
oldtguy, I put the vacuum gauge on there and it was over 20" but would dip down with each miss and fall off completely with the stall. Nothing unusual there.
I watched the spark on individual plug wires and thought I was onto something when #7 was missing noticeably more frequently than the others. I cleaned the outside of the wire and looked for problems from dist cap to plug and found none. Wire showed perfect continuity no matter how I contorted it. After reassembly I didn't see 7 miss more than once or twice but it would still stall out after a minute or two of running.
When it stalls, if I just turn the key it will act like a bad resistor: fire up immediately and stall as soon as I let the key snap to "run".
If I open up the throttle to fast idle speed, however, when I start it it will continue to run with lots of misses that reduce in number after maybe 15 seconds. I can then ease it down to hot idle speed, which it will maintain for about a minute. During that minute or so I get occasional random misses, then at the end of the time there is a missing "fit" that ends with a stall.
I don't suppose I could post videos up here, could I? Would that help?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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PWH42, I'm pretty sure the coil can doesn't need to be grounded. Both coil and bracket are usually painted which wouldn't be good for grounding. The windings are electrically insulated from the can as well.
Just ran the engine in the dark to look for high tension leakage. None was evident. If I touched the coil to distributor lead, however, there was a soft glow at my fingertip. No tingling or shocking going on, and no effect on misfires or anything.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I have not yet tried the Chrysler's Accel coil in the Fairlane because, to be honest, I'm afraid to mess with a good thing. I'm still planning to try it as a last resort. Wanted to put in another update before I proceed though, just in case...
Spent more time fooling around with it today, pretty much re-checking everything. It so happened that everything under the hood was exactly 75*F according to my temp probe, which is the exact spec the manual cites for all resistances, so I checked them. Ballast: 1.3 ohms. Coil primary: 1.3 ohms. Coil secondary: 8350 ohms. Coil current draw (engine stopped): 4.15A
Just for grins, I checked the Chrysler at the same time. I was surprised to find its ballast resistor read just 0.8 ohms.
Anyway. Started the car, drove it around to warm it up, everything's peachy. Got to the usual point where it would start up but not run. Swapped in a different condenser, no change, and inspected the points, which looked OK. No change. Only thing that makes any difference is bypassing the resistor, which makes it run great. Today the coil was not much over 100* when the problems started happening. When I bypassed the resistor, its temperature climbed substantially. Charging voltage was 14.5V; volts to coil post-resistor were around 12.
I noticed that I could thin the idle mixture out a half turn at idle in gear without any noticeable change in engine running, as long as the resistor was bypassed.
I am very suspicious that this coil is bad. It seems plausible that when the coil gets enough heat in it a short develops in the primary windings resulting in a weakened spark that can be "corrected" by boosting the voltage supply. It also seems plausible, as some of you have suggested, that the ballast resistor isn't doing its job and reducing the current sufficiently. Both components show basically the same resistances when the system is malfunctioning as when it is working properly, ALTHOUGH I think it is worth noting that the coil primary resistance DROPS a couple tenths when it gets warm while the secondary resistance climbs up about 1k ohms.
If the coil is bad, either a component external to it caused it to fail (such as the ballast resistor) or else the design of the particular coil I bought is not suited to its environment on the Fairlane's engine. Since I don't understand why the coil was getting so hot in the first place, and I cannot find any conclusive, measurable faults in specific parts, I'm left in the unenviable position of having to assume that at least one of the "new" parts is bad out of the box without any guarantee that the next I buy will be any better.
Should the resistor be knocking that 14.5V down below 12?
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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OK, it is beginning to look like I've been barking up the wrong tree.
I ran all of the same tests on the Chrysler and found it to have 10V to coil while seeing 14.5V at the battery. The coil voltage dropped below 8 at idle but there was no trouble.
I found an old mustard top coil I had, and tried that coil as well as the Chrysler's coil, a spare resistor, and the Chrysler's resistor all in the Ford, all with the exact same results. I also tried the Ford coil (that I believed to be faulty) on the Chrysler since Autozone listed the same coil for both cars. It chugged away without a hiccup regardless of the voltage or temperature it was seeing. Since the Chrysler's dwell spec was higher, and it was set at 30*, and I usually set my Fords to 28.5 but had this one set at 26, I tried increasing the dwell, which had no effect. In the end I left it at 28.5*.
Next I tried plugging the line for the wiper motor at the wiper motor; no effect. Then I plugged the choke thermostat hole. This was the only thing I tried other than bypassing the resistor that would let the car idle apparently indefinitely. There were still some hiccups in the idle but it didn't feel like it would stop, whereas normally it would stop within 5 seconds.
I sprayed around the carb base and manifold with water but found no vacuum leaks. My specs say that the carb mixture should be happiest about 1 turn from seated but it will not run below 1.5 turns. There is a calibrated orifice in the carb underside which meters vacuum to the choke thermostat so that is sort of a designed-in vacuum leak. The only thing that makes sense to me at this point is something that I thought I'd already addressed, which is air leaking past the secondary throttle plates, which have no idle ports, causing a leaning effect and poor low speed running. This does not account for the high-speed misfiring I had at the start of this trouble, but I don't know what else could be wrong. I can't find any faults in the ignition components and have even observed the engine stumbling and quitting, pretty abruptly, while my timing light showed continued flashes at the coil wire.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Pete,
Thanks for sticking with me on this! You're probably right about overthinking, and I hope some silly little obvious thing ends up being the problem! I'm inclined to agree with you about sudden problems being electrical. I have focused on the electrical for that reason.
As for your list of major players, the battery is new. When I bypassed the resistor, I did so by disconnecting the wires at the resistor and putting them together, which keeps the ignition switch in circuit. The voltage drop across the switch was not substantial, either, but the part is cheap so if you think it's worth just replacing it I don't mind giving it a go. I have tried 3 different resistors, 2 new one old and known to be reliable, all with the same result. I have now tried 3 different coils, 1 new, 2 tested to be reliable with the same result. The points have less than 1000 miles on them and do not appear burnt or unusually scored. I have tried 2 different condensers (both new). The plugs are new and gapped on the smaller end of the range, .033".
The little ground wire inside the distributor looks just fine and the voltage drop across it seems fine BUT I haven't given it any special attention yet so I will. The secondary wires were installed before I bought the car but had never been used as the motor was stuck, so I consider them to be new.
EDIT: I pulled the distributor just now and made sure the ground wire was intact and making good clean contact at both ends. Upon reassembly, I had to skip the resistor again to get the engine to run slowly enough to set the timing up right. So still no improvement.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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312T85Bird,
That's very interesting. I suspect that kind of problem is what I'm dealing with.
Here's a general question about wiring: If a stranded wire has a few of its strands broken, is that enough to affect performance?
When I test for continuity or resistance with a meter, only a very small voltage/current is supplied to the wire by the meter to compute the value. It seems possible that if the ground wire had only a few strands intact, the meter would not see a problem but the wire would not be able to handle the current required.
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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I tried bending and twisting the breaker plate ground wire while continuity checking and there was no evidence of an open. I checked the engine grounds by looking for a voltage drop between engine and chassis with lights and blower fan running; there was none. I let the engine run at 700 rpm until it died, which took about 15 min. From that point on it would not stay running, so I rechecked the previous items with no changes. I found that enriching the idle mixture would allow it to run for a little while but it would still die.
Just for grins I pulled all the plugs again thinking that a gap change might help. They are the first piece of actual evidence to the problem that I have found: the front 4 plugs were dark and sooty from how rich I had made the mixture, but the rear 4 plugs, especially the rearmost, had no soot and were pinkish.
I think that the carb secondary plate leakage is the best theory to account for all of the symptoms:
A lean mixture is harder to ignite than a rich mixture. When the engine warms up sufficiently, the fuel is finely atomized, the choke is wide open, and the low speed mixture is at its leanest. Because of the calibrated orifice in the carb body for the auto choke, a metered amount of air is bled in behind the throttle plates when the choke is fully open, further leaning the mixture. If the secondary throttle plates are bleeding in still more air past the idle fuel circuit, then the mixture becomes very lean, requiring that 1. the mixture screws must be turned out beyond spec'd limits to achieve idle speed running. Since the primary plates are not seeing the full airflow, velocity through them is reduced, contributing to the need to open the screws up. The majority of the idle-circuit-enriched air passes to the nearest cylinders (front 4) and the leaner, secondary-air-bled mixture goes to the rearmost 4, causing 2. sooty front plugs and pink rear plugs. Due to the unbalanced mixture across all 8 cylinders, and the extreme leanness at the rear 4, 3. idle quality is poor at best and the engine stalls shortly after starting. Since a lean mixture is harder to ignite but not impossible, 4. boosting voltage/current to the coil keeps the engine running. Above idle speed, the volume of fuel-enriched air moving through the primary venturis is far greater than the amount of lean air bleeding through the secondaries so 5. the engine generally runs consistently above idle speed. Lean mixture being the overall problem, 6. plugging the auto choke stove inlet keeps the engine running, though not as well as bypassing the resistor because the mixture is still leaner to the rear cylinders.
That covers all of the symptoms except for the high speed miss I experienced on a longer drive on a hot day. Perhaps that was a product of high-speed low-throttle cruising elevating cylinder temperatures in the rear 4 to a point where combustion quality was affected.
Unfortunately I don't know how to test this theory. A spritz of carb cleaner into the secondaries while idling will immediately cause the engine to stumble, same as when applied to the primaries. There is no question that air is leaking past them in some amount. But how perfect does the seal have to be?
P.S., the carburetor is an original, correctly-jetted 1957 Carter AFB with vacuum actuated secondaries. If anyone has special knowledge pertaining to these, I'm all ears
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By peeeot - 12 Years Ago
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Hey Hoosier,
I know that there isn't a strict division front to rear, but don't you think it makes sense that, if the secondaries were cracked open and air flowing through them, that more of that air would get to the rearmost cylinders than to the frontmost cylinders, thereby sending an overall leaner mixture their way? It is a shorter path to travel. If only the secondaries fed the rear cylinders then they wouldn't fire at all as there is no idle circuit for them.
The early AFB has a pair of sighting plugs in the fuel bowls. I removed these and observed that the fuel level was the same when the engine was running steady as when it was dying. I also removed the filter and checked for clogging.
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By chiggerfarmer - 12 Years Ago
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I suspect that the fuel may play some part in your problem, but don't know how much. My 54 Crestline (all original) had a terrible hot soak problem. I fixed it completely by trial and error lowering of the float level, as far low as possible without causing other issues. Other carburetors, such as yours, probably have different reactions to today's fuel. I know this is not much, but sometimes every little bit of info helps.
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By The Master Cylinder - 12 Years Ago
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Excuse me for jumping in the middle of your post as I have not been following closely but I have to ask... Are you running a ballast resistor AND an internal resistor coil. I have seen in the past where there is too much resistance, resulting in low voltage to the coil causing the coil to overheat. Sorry if that has already been mentioned.
Excessive plug gap can also cause the coil to overheat.
Just a thought and my 1¢ worth.
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By 312T85Bird - 12 Years Ago
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I chased what sounds the same for about a year because the problem came and went and would not show up on test meters.
I found it purely by accident, a stroke of luck, or God decided that I needed a break? In any event the ground wire inside the distributor (also a 1957) was broken inside the insulation and would make contact and then not so I made up a new ground wire (From the housing to breaker plate) and have not had the problem since. In my case I believe that was the problem.
312T85Bird
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By 312T85Bird - 12 Years Ago
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I chased a similiar sounding problem for about a year and by accident found that the ground wire from the Dist. housing to the breaker plate was broken inside the insulation. Installed a new ground wire and I have not had a problem since. Worth a look see.
312T85Bird
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By 312T85Bird - 12 Years Ago
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Had all the same symptons and by accident I found that the breaker plate ground wire was seperated inside of the insulation. Replaced the wire and have not had a problem since
312T85Bird
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By 312T85Bird - 12 Years Ago
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Two things, but first are you using quality points and not something like Blue Streak? Second did you check the point angle adjustment? This can be found in the FORD Factory maintaince manual. Also, have you checked to see that there are no wires broken inside the insulation? This is done with an OHM meter, and one culprit that I have personally had drive me nuts until I found it was the breaker plate ground wire that was seperated inside the insulation. The point angle adjustment is something that most people never think of.
312T85Bird
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By 312T85Bird - 12 Years Ago
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I have responded several times about a broken wire instde the insulation having been my problem for the sameissues but it never gets posted??? My was the breaker plate ground wire, maube they will post this some day so that you can check it out.
312T85Bird
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By slick56 - 12 Years Ago
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Below is a link to Lucas Fault diagnosis manual
Have you changed the condenser (capacitor)?
"The condenser serves to enhance the spark by greatly increasing the voltage to the input of the ignition coil. It does this through a sudden electrical surge and a high frequency ringing effect, bringing the voltage as high as 300 volts for input to the coil immediately after the ignition points break."
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By wlj1943 - 12 Years Ago
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Maybe a nearly failing ignition switch contact(s)? I know on T'birds (not the same switch as car) this has happened to me twice with similar symptoms. Try jiggling the fey a bit when its running, just don't turn it too far towards start. That could explain the voltage drop you measured, so measure across the switch ( Bat to Ign terminal).
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By Rig - 12 Years Ago
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My guess would be a faulty resistor on the firewall. Mine fell apart and ruined my coil.
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By OldTGuy - 12 Years Ago
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Peeeot,
All your testing seems to come back normal. What did you do to fix the coil from overheating? Have you put a vacuum gauge on the engine and monitor the readings when this starts carring on?
JJ
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By OldTGuy - 12 Years Ago
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peeeot,
Does your car have power brakes? Have your blocked off the vacuum hose to the brake booster? I've had boosters give me problems in the past.
JJ
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By tnguynaford - 12 Years Ago
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Man I feel your pain on this. I have read thru all the posts and it is being a real pain for sure. Have you checked the distributor for wear. If the bushings or shaft is worn the timing will be very erratic inside the cap creating similar problems you are describing. It makes the points and rotor to be out of whack in random patterns. I have encountered this a couple times before.
Gene
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 12 Years Ago
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How about trying the Chrysler coil on the Ford and seeing if it fixes your problem?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 12 Years Ago
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If the car quits and you have to bypass the resistor to get it to run, the resistor is opening when it gets warm. Bypassing the resistor will heat the coil. Check the resistance of the resistor when the car dies, you will probably find it open.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 12 Years Ago
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Peeot:
There is one flaw in your dissertation. The primaries do not feed the front cylinders and the secondaries the rears. If that was true it would run on just the front 4 cyliinders all the time except when you floor the throttle.
You know, it sounds like you are running out of fuel after running for a while. Have you tried running it with the gas cap off, just to make sure the tank vent is not plugged?
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 12 Years Ago
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Pete's description of wire resistance is for the resistance wires used for the past several years. Yours having no resistance tells me they are the old solid core wires of the '50s and '60s. If the insulation isn't breaking down, the lack of resistance is not a problem.
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