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By Doug T - 17 Years Ago
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I have never believed that really we needed aluminum heads for Y`s. Thats the kind of thinking that makes the scrub guys so annoying, just throw $$$$ at it to go fast. Aluminum heads would of course make more power but wouldn`t really separate good mechanics and racers from the guys with more money. After all if we were all really serious about racing in non bracket type classes it wouldn`t be Yblock Fords no matter what. But what would be a lot more fun to play with and would be much less expensive to get into small scale production would be replacement type Hilborns with provision for Electronic spray nozzles. Well need may be a bit strong but that is just my former and current thinking on the state of the Y world. Are you listening Frank
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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I agree. At this point I could use efi more than aluminum heads. I have had a similar vision to yours. Hilborn style efi. Does an aluminum head always make more power? I've figured that an iron head would do better relating to power production, provided that the heads were otherwise identical. My reasoning is if aluminum gets rid of the heat faster it will result in power loss due to the extra heat lost through the head. I have noticed that many times an aluminum head will have a smaller combustion chamber which I have assumed confirms my thought - raise the compression to get the power back.
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By bird55 - 17 Years Ago
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ok, kept my mouth shut as long as I could.
I agree about efi, Doug. Go for it.
I came very close to spending the dough on converting an old hilborn setup.
But why not just contact Hilborn and pitch the idea to them? They used to have the old molds? although it is probably a different company now, and the mold would take a bunch of changing Frank and John and Ted, probably have already figured this all out, long ago.
HILBORN does make a setup for flatties, sohc motors and small and big block fords. about 5-6 grand.
My Iron heads were done by John Mummert and they flow great. And i'm out of my league here but have always read that theorectically Iron will make more HP, ALL THINGS ELSE BEING EQUAL. So I think you are correct, Charlie.
Anyway, I like this thread.
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By pegleg - 17 Years Ago
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Charlies correct.......Theoretically. Iron does transfer heat more slowly. therefore more of the heat becomes torque as opposed to a hot water heater. There have even been Aluminum heads cast with cast iron combustion chambers to circumvent this issue. Most of the time we just cast very thick decks and chambers and reduce the chamber size for more static compression. Seems to work. Also, remember you typically remove 40 to 60 lbs of weight from the front of the car. In a drag car that's a huge advantage. As far as the injection goes.......Who wants to bankroll it?
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By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
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I trust everyone has seen the set-up that "Lord Mr. Ford" is building.....its nearly the one you want, right?...... A little clever milled billet design work and a CNC machine tool could very nearly duplicate the Hilborn design without a casting (in my opinion). 
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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I love the look of the Hillborn injector system, but it's got throttle blades so close the the valves, I'd like to see something more like the SEFI intake on the 5.0; really long runners. In fact, I'll bet you could use the factory upper intake manifolds from a 5.0 on the properly designed lower for a y-block. It's not the most elegant looking intake, but it works like crazy. And you could use the rest of the 5.0 system to complete the package; sensors, wiring, ECU.
Obviously, the exhaust gas crossover won't be needed, and that's where the injectors would need to be.
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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Hey Doug. Welcome back. Total agreement on EFI being nice to have. There’s the same issue with EFI as with the heads and that’s getting it tooled up and into production without it being somebodys’ pet project or passion and where the design costs would be put up and/or absorbed by that individual. But I’m on a head kick only because the usuable cores suitable for performance are fast being used up. Too many of the cores are now cracked, rusted down, or just simply have no rebuilds left in them. And with the non-posted heads only being suitable for stock compression rebuilds, that brings the number of cores suitable for a performance build down even more. A replacement head in either aluminum or iron would solve this problem and at the same time incorporate some more modern technology in port flow, combustion chamber design, and spark plugs. When the head project was originally proposed to SpeedSmith (now defunct), the chamber cc’s were to be smaller than stock to overcome some of the ineffieciencies of using aluminum. I’m very aware of the problem with the heat transfer with aluminum and for the most part, the reduced weight of the heads as well as increased flow properties will typically overcome this for a net gain. As Al brought up, with everything being equal other than the weight, the cast iron heads will generally outperform the aluminum versions.
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By 1964fordf100292 - 17 Years Ago
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well, guys. I am in the planning stages of constructing a custom intake to use the ford 5.0 sefi on the 292 in my truck. I am tryn to figure out how to construct it so that i can use the upper intake for the 5.0. thats one thought anyways. here's my plan. please share what you think. custom intake modified tfi dizzy to fit the 292 ford racing wiring harness or painless's 5.0 fuel injection set modifed firing order either with a chip or the tweecer mustang tank setup up for efi the only thing i am not sure of yet is as to what kinda material to use. thinking sheetmetal might work but wouldnt tubes to a flange work better for flow reasons????? well, see anything i missed????
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 17 Years Ago
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1964: The thing that struck me from your list is the modified firing order comment. Wouldn't that require a special camshaft? The Y blanks probably would not have lobes where you need them. Also, aren't the sbc guys making special cams so they can use the same firing sequence as the Y and the flathead? Supposedly a performance advantage. John
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By LordMrFord - 17 Years Ago
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Biggest problem with 8-point injection with Y is location of injectors.
If I build EFI with original Ford stuff, this might be one answer.
Custom intake manifold without that Ford upper side.
Injectors are inline when fuelrail are not a problem.
...this is just idea.
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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I don't see any reason to change firing orders, but the injector wiring would need to changed to suit the firing order of the y-block.
I think the 95 Mustang HO engine used a TFI system with the TFI module mounted on the firewall. With a little research, I think you could use a pre-57 distributor with the advance disabled. Switch to a pertronix pickup.
The camshaft would want to be changed to something with a large LSA, something like 112 or more. Custom, for sure.
The intake can be fabricated from sheet metal, but I've never done something like that. I would have positioned the injectors to point down the ports. That would put the injectors on the sides of the runners, not on the top.
I would use a Mustang HO upper intake, and cut the top off a Mustang HO lower and use that as the termination of a fabricated lower. Because the manifold is dry, you can snake the runners to suit your needs.
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By HoLun - 17 Years Ago
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TBI not good enugh? anyway, I have an idea for ported EFI on stock manifold, have to drill and weld in bungs for injectors on the side of the manifold since our ports are stacked instead of side by side, and fabicrate fuel rails for them., then machine the manifold to accept throttle body of your choice.
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By GREENBIRD56 - 17 Years Ago
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If I was going to the trouble to build a custom E-fuel injection system - for a Y block - I think I would prefer to have eight wicked looking ram tubes poking out of there - those belly button stocker Mustang set-ups are a dime a dozen. The motors in our outfits have a different heritage. The best thing about the E-fuel set-up is that you could put those ram tubes out on the street and drive them around - its not "race only" like the original Hilborns. And furthermore, the firing order isn't to be messed with ...................
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By Ted - 17 Years Ago
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As Paul mentions, firing order of the engine doesn’t have to change. That would bring up all kinds of other problems anyhow. All that’s needed is to switch the wiring between the injectors to correct the firing order of just the injectors at the ports and leave the Y firing order alone. Computer can still think it’s using the 5.0 firing order that way. That’s the recommended fix for a 5.0 when installing a camshaft with the 289 firing order but in those instances where the injector order is not changed, it doesn’t appear to be a show stopper as the engines still perform well with the injectors out of sequence. Here’s pics of the EFI manifold that Jerry Christenson built for Chris Larsen. As far as I know, it hasn’t been tested yet but throws another take on how to make it happen.  
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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That is beautiful work. And the long runners should make some good torque.
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By 1964fordf100292 - 17 Years Ago
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when I say "modified firing order" I mean i can get a chip that will change the firing order for the computer. From what i am led to believe, in order for the 5.0 injection to work on the y-block. either a custom chip with the y-block firing order in it has to be used or the tweecer so you can change the firing order. the reason the firing order has to be changed is cause, the computer uses the O2 sensors in the manifolds to tell if a cylinder is missfiring and if the computer is running the 5.0 firing order and the ignition is using the y-block firign order, ther will be cylinders that are getting fuel but no spark and vice versa and the O2 sensor will tell the computer that ther are cylinders missfireing which in turn puts the computer into limp mode cause ther are thing wrong. as far as the ignition goes, this ezplains it better than i could. this is transplanted from a another forum i am part of. On engines having sequential electronic fuel injection (SEFI), one tooth on the vane cup is smaller than the rest to identify when cylinder No. 1 is at 10 degrees BTDC. The width of the PIP signal generated by this tooth is smaller than that of the other teeth and is called signature PIP.
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By LordMrFord - 17 Years Ago
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Im suprised if one or one/side lambda goes crazy if firing order is wrong.
Narrowband lambda is not very accurate or tell what cylinder is firing.
I might be wrong, cause Ford SEFI is not my special.
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By charliemccraney - 17 Years Ago
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That manifold does look good. I wonder if the injector locations will work well. It looks like some might spray onto the opposing wall of the runner. And with the Y-block port layout 4 of them may be spraying in the wrong direction. I don't know how injector positioning effects things. I have notice that many factory injected engine seem to have the injectors squirting down the middle of the runner and are positioned at an angle that looks to be somewhere around 25 degrees to the center line of the runner. It does look like that manifold design could be modified so that the injectors squirt almost dead center in the ports - if that is important at all. In any case, this 5.0 injection thing sounds promising.
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By pcmenten - 17 Years Ago
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I think some injectors are more of the fogger type. As long as they're operating when its valve is open and air is passing the injector, it might be ok. But, yes, it might be better to point the injector at the back of the valve if possible.
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By miker - 17 Years Ago
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The other way to go about this might be to use Weber throttle bodies adapted from the 302 Ford set ups. Then you'd only need to build a short runner type manifold and mount the carbs cross ways (like the original Hilborn for a y) and rig your own linkage. Maybe a separate water outlet on each side. They set these up with the fuel rail down the center, which would lend itself to crossways mounting. Take a look at http://www.racetep.com/twmv8.html. I don't know how much improvement there is in the computer and control side, but I saw one of these set ups about 3 years ago on a 302, and the manifolds needed to be connected below the butterflies to create a plenum to get a smooth vacuum signal. It was all done in tubing below the manifold (in the lifter galley). The car ran with the original set up, but not well and was not streetable by most standards. The bill for the manifold work and dyno tuning alone was $7000.00. I've seen similar issues with an Algon system converted to electronics for a 409. The throttle bodies are going to be over $5000.00, plus the fab work, computer fuel pump and plumbing, etc. Food for thought, but it starts to make a Holley throttle body on a Blue Thunder look pretty good.
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By Y block Billy - 17 Years Ago
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How about some manifolds to run thode IDF webbers, it would look close enough to a Hilborn setup.
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