Dual 4V Set-up


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By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
I have an ECG9424-D aluminum Intake manifold and a List 1161-2 and a 1161-2AS carburetors that I would like to put on a 1956 Crown Victoria 292 ci engine. Any problems? Does anyone know where I can get the throttle linkages and the special manifold holddown washers?
Appreciate any help.
Mike
By Hoosier Hurricane - 11 Years Ago
The manifold will not clear the stock '56 valley pan.  The '56 kits used a flat plate valley cover, 3/32 thick with the fill tube brazed in and the baffles brazed or welded in.  '57 dual four setups had a valley pan with a recessed area under the center of the manifold.  The stock '56 distributor will be extremely aggravating to get working properly with those '57 carbs.  Better choice would be to use a '57 or later distributor, or aftermarket.  Since it is going in a passenger car, the carbs can be mounted with the choke plates toward the front, thereby eliminating the need for the crossover linkage as used in T-Birds.  Birds mount the carbs backward to clear the hood scoop.  It shouldn't be too hard to fabricate linkage, the carbs work in unison, they are not progressive.  Good luck, keep us posted.
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
The intake manifold hold-down washers used by Ford with the 2x4 aluminum intake were oval in shape. 

While these were unique to the '56 power pack and '57 'E' code dual quad set-ups, my understanding is that they were identical to the hold-down washers used on the '54 Ford 239 and the '54 Mercury 256 V-8s.

I hope this helps you to locate a set and avoid paying a ridiculous price.  Smile
By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
John,
  It is my understanding that these 1161 carbs were used on a 1956 Ford or Mercury car. I have a 1957 "E" Bird and the proper carbs are 2 ECJ 9510 AB for a manual (mine) transmission and 1 ECJ 9510 AA (front) and 1 ECJ 9510 AB (rear) for an automatic transmission. If that is true, shouldn't the standard 1956 distributor work? I am hoping to get a 1956 Crown Vic soon.
Mike
37 Chevy pick-up street rod
55 Olds Super 88 2 dr ht
57 Thunderbird "D"
57 Thunderbird "E"
66 Dodge Dart 383 ci
68 Mercury Cougar XR7
79 Chevy El Camino 
By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
AKA,
  Thanks for the info. Any idea where I might find a set resonably priced?
Mike
By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
John,
  Sorry, I left the list numbers out for the 57 "E" Bird carbs. The AA carb is list 1437 and the AB is list 1434. I have a modified valley pan that should work with the ECG 9424 D manifold.
Mike
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
NoShortcuts (8/26/2014)
The intake manifold hold-down washers used by Ford with the 2x4 aluminum intake were oval in shape. 

While these were unique to the '56 power pack and '57 'E' code dual quad set-ups, my understanding is that they were identical to the hold-down washers used on the '54 Ford 239 and the '54 Mercury 256 V-8s.

I hope this helps you to locate a set and avoid paying a ridiculous price.  Smile


On eBay Motors, use the search function to locate item 351142406444.  The item is the manifold hold-downs that you're looking for.  IMO, this is an example of a ridiculous price to pay for these clamps.
_______________________________
IF you want to see what the '57 'E' passenger car dual quad carb connector piece looked like, this is a reproduction that is being offered on eBay.  See eBay item 350969376159

As John said, you can make your own easily for much less.  Smile
By Hoosier Hurricane - 11 Years Ago
Rocketman, the '56 carbs would have EDB-C numbers.  You are correct, the ECJ carbs are '57.  The '56 kit included a vacuum advance  and specs for setting the advance, so something is different than a single four advance rate.
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
The internal vacuum circuitry used in the '57 ECJ-AA or ECJ-AB Holley 4000 carburetors that supplies the distributor vacuum advance canister of a '57 FoMoCo distributor is significantly different than the vacuum circuitry used in the '56 series of Holley 4000 carburetors to include the optional over-the-Ford-parts-counter 2x4 power pack EDB series Holley 4000 carburetors.

Put another way, IF you found yourself using '56 series Holley 4000 carburetors as replacements for the '57 ECJ carburetors with a '57-'64 FoMoCo distributor, you would have to modify the vacuum circuitry on the '56 carburetors.  Ted Eaton has an EXCELLENT article on how to do this on his web site.  See http://www.eatonbalancing.com/blog/2013/03/02/modifying-the-holley-teapot-four-barrel-carb-for-late-model-distributors/

The '54-'56 FoMoCo LoadOMatic ignition distributors used only vacuum to control the distributor ignition spark advance curve.  '57-'64 FoMoCo distributors used a combination of a centrifugal mechanical advance AND vacuum advance to accomplish the ignition spark advance curve.  The '54-'56 vacuum only LoadOMatic ignition advance systems are PROBLEMATIC and the '57-'64 combination centrifugal and vacuum ignition advance system yield improved, reliable engine performance.

In summary, you cannot intermix the early and later components.  '54-'56 FoMoCo application carburetors will not work with '57-'64 FoMoCo distributors without modifications to the carburetor vacuum circuitry.  Also, '57 and later FoMoCo application carburetors will not work with the earlier '54-'56 FoMoCo LoadOMatic distributors, period.

I hope this info helps you understand why you can't use your '57 series Holley 4000 ECJ carburetors with the '56 FoMoCo LoadOMatic distributor.  The vacuum signal from the ECJ carburetors would not provide the correct vacuum signal for actuating the '56 distributor ignition advance curve.
By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
AKA,
  I think that we crossed wires somewhere in this discussion. I was referring to the 57 ECJ 9510 AA & AB that are installed on my "E" Bird only for reference with John. The "E" Bird has a special distributor, FEJ-B(2), that was only used on the "E" configuration. The question was; Can the ECZ-9510M, list 1161-2 carbs be used on a 56 Crown Vic 292 engine with it's original distributor?
Mike
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
Oops!

The short answer is, yes, BUT as John indicated, in late '56 when Ford offered the over-the-Ford-parts-counter-only 2x4 power pack package for the '56 standard transmission only vehicles, they included some components to modify the travel of the stock '56 LoadOMatic distributor advance mechanism.
_____________________________
As you may know, simply putting two single quad application carburetors on a 2x4 manifold won't give you the performance that you desire.  IF you dig in the Forum archive, you will find several recommendations for modifying '56 series Holley 4000 carburetors to work in a 2x4 configuration:

'56 Ford / Mercury Holley 4000s originally purposed as single 4 barrel carburetors on 292 or 312 engines need to have the following modifications performed on them to function properly in an 'E' code (dual quad) configuration:

1)  Install replacement secondary vacuum diaphragm springs
- springs to be installed will have half the tension value of what were used for original single quad application use;
- this is necessary because the vacuum signal for the secondary throttle plates vacuum diaphragm is cut in half with the 2x4 set-up;

The spring value that you need can be obtained from Holley or a Holley parts supplier (Holley offers a spring assortment 'kit' that they sell for tuning the vacuum secondaries on their 4150 / 4160 carburetors;  The kit is helpful for individuals who have changed camshafts.  -Increased camshaft valve overlap will change the vacuum signal and negatively affect when the secondaries will open)

Depending on your engine combination (cubic inches, compression ratio, camshaft specs), you will likely use the white or yellow spring from the Holley assortment pack...  NOTE: the weaker the spring in the vacuum secondary chamber, the sooner the vacuum controlled carburetor secondaries will begin to open.

2) Install secondary balance tube fittings in each carburetor base after removing the existing plugs.  These fittings are installed on the fuel inlet side of the carburetor aluminum base nearest to the choke linkage side of the carburetor.  (Look at the ‘E’ set-up on your ‘Bird)  The installed tubes are connected by a vacuum hose that serves to equalize the vacuum signal to the vacuum control diaphragms to assure that the secondaries in the two carburetors open simultaneously.
 
- Ted Eaton on our Forum has recommended the use of Holley 4150 / 4160 carburetor float bowl connector tube for making the press-in tube fittings.  This tubing will look nearly identical to original 'E' carb tube fitting once installed...
- connecting the installed tube fittings by a neoprene vacuum hose will be identical to the original Ford 'E' set-up.

3) For the dual quad application, install the correct high speed primary jets in both carburetor bowls for your elevation (#45 for 0 to 15,000 ft.)

4) For the dual quad application, silver solder closed the secondary 'venturi metering tubes' (2 in each carb), re-drill orifice with the correct size number drill bit (#55 for 0 to 15,000 ft.)  Note:  obtaining the correct size secondary metering tubes is impossible;  by silver soldering the existing tubes closed and re-drilling them, you accomplish the same thing.

5) The power valves in each carburetor fuel bowl will need to have two or three turns of their spring tied together to reduce the total spring tension.  This is necessary because the vacuum signal is reduced when the two carburetors are used together in the2x4 configuration.  Without making this modification, the 'economizer' (power valve) will not open as needed to enrich the air fuel mixture when accelerating. 

By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
Ford had reason for discontinuing the use of the vacuum input only Load-O-Matic distributor advance units, Mike.

IF I didn't do anything else in assembling a y-block for use in a vehicle, I would change out the original Load-O-Matic distributor for a later '57-'64 unit.
By Hoosier Hurricane - 11 Years Ago

Charlie:

I agree with what you say except for carb jetting.  The ECZ-M carbs are not dual quad carbs.  The dual carbs have restrictor rings on the boost venturii to increase the air flow in the primaries, thereby increasing vacuum at the fuel discharge tube.  55 jets will be too lean without the rings.  I would suggest leaving the original jets in the M carbs and when the setup is running, tune the jetting as needed.  I'm not sure why the secondary jets are smaller for the dual setup, the secondary throats are the same size for both carbs.  Maybe there are differences in air bleeds somewhere making the jetting requirement different.

By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
Rocketman 88 (8/27/2014)

Thanks for the info. Any idea where I might find a set resonably priced?
Mike

Well, the last set of hold down clamps I referenced were $100.00 plus shipping, Mike.  -Ridiculous!  This set on eBay is $30.00 Buy-It-Now plus shipping.  Search eBay item number 271588347168. 

These are still more expensive than I'd like to see you pay, BUT... I don't have any to offer to help you out.

IF you want to wait, I'll keep lookiing...  Smile
By DryLakesRacer - 11 Years Ago
Rocketman 88. Good luck with your project. I'm working toward the same end but using different avenues.Moving along pretty quickly just waiting for one of the cabs to come back from restoration; one is already done and works perfectly. It will be the principal carb. Mine will be on my 56 292 also.

What are your plans for an air cleaner? Not wanting the look of a 270HP GM car I'm hoping to replicate the the Ford parts counter Purolator cover, red of course. I have found quite a few photos on line but no actual demensions which I hope I can come up with from some one on this site. Ted showed us alot of 2 4 barrel combos I was hoping he has an original but I haven't asked and will after both carbs are on the manifold.  I think I have the base figured out and the filter element. I already purchased a few "near" correct decals and I will always say it's a replica and not a real Ford 2-4 setup.

Mine will just be for crusing and to look different when I open the hood. I may need to go back to the black rocker covers and remove the T-birds but not sure on that....Once again good luck
By Oldmics - 11 Years Ago
According to my Holly information the float bowl cover is different on the dual quad carbs that the regular T Pot
The cover used on the 1956 EDB carbs and also on both of the 1957 "E" carbs are the same part number and again different than any of the other T Pots.


As to that auction on the hold down clamps - that guy screwed me on a set of "E" style clamps (sent normal hold downs) and was a real P.I.T.A$$. I would not entertain any purchases from him.


I have a Purolater dual quad Ford correct air cleaner that I would sell if interested (not cheap).I could offer the dimensions to you if you like.

Oldmics



By DryLakesRacer - 11 Years Ago
Oldmics..I am definatly interested in the air cleaner please e-mail me at gmc6power@earthlink.net with details I and thanks for the information. This site has been a wealth of information....Thanks
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
Oldmics (8/28/2014)
According to my Holly information the float bowl cover is different on the dual quad carbs that the regular T Pot
The cover used on the 1956 EDB carbs and also on both of the 1957 "E" carbs are the same part number and again different than any of the other T Pots.

Oldmics


THANKS for the info, Oldmics.  I'd like to see what the openings look like on an ECJ or EDB carburetor cover.  Blink  
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
Hoosier Hurricane (8/27/2014)

Charlie:

I agree with what you say except for carb jetting.  The ECZ-M carbs are not dual quad carbs.  The dual carbs have restrictor rings on the boost venturii to increase the air flow in the primaries, thereby increasing vacuum at the fuel discharge tube.  55 jets will be too lean without the rings.  I would suggest leaving the original jets in the M carbs and when the setup is running, tune the jetting as needed.  I'm not sure why the secondary jets are smaller for the dual setup, the secondary throats are the same size for both carbs.  Maybe there are differences in air bleeds somewhere making the jetting requirement different.


Your thinking regarding the jetting of original application single quad Holley 4000s when used as replacements for the 'E' code carb units is appreciated, John.  Your actual experience with the 2x4 set-up on your '56 is invaluable.

In assembling a set-up with '56 single quad application carbs, I've been going by what I've gathered from earlier Forum entries and what I've been able to glean from the Ford parts books in putting a set-up together.  I can see where the difference in primary booster venturis could cause a difference in the primary jetting you've mentioned.  While the brass washers on the venturi boosters could be viewed as a form of air flow restriction, they also would seem to speed up the flow of air for metering purposes.

You mentioned air bleeds, and that's something I've been scratching my head about.  Wasn't there a different cover used on the fuel bowl of the ECJ and EDB series Holley 4000s used with the 2x4 configuration?  Do I recall Ted mentioning something about air bleeds on the 2x4 Holley 4000s in the 2x4 testing article in Y-Block Magazine?  Because the vacuum signal is cut-in-half in the 2x4 carb set-up, is the venting needed for the fuel bowl different???

Thanks for any help on this.  I'm trying to avoid more-than-normal sorting out a a non-original set-up.  Smile
By Oldmics - 11 Years Ago
I will get a picture of both covers up over the weekend (work is crazy busy at the moment)

I too would like to see what the difference is.

Oldmics

By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
AKA,
  Wow! Thanks for that great breakdown. As I was going to do this 2x4v more or less as a novelty only because I have the manifold, carbs and valley pan, on a car that I haven't yet got, it probably has gotten to the "Too Hard" stage. Will most likely be listing these items on EBay or maybe on this site.
  For everyone who took the time and effort to educate this neophyte I would like to express my sincere appreciation.
Rocketman (Aka Mike)
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
Rocketman 88 (Mike), I'm disappointed to hear that the information shared has served to discourage you from doing what you set out to do.  The intention was to support you with the info needed to assemble a 2x4 set-up that would operate and perform as good as if it came directly from Detroit back in the '50s or '60s. 

Car enthusiasts have been throwing multi-carb set-ups on vehicles for years-and-years without doing anything to the carburetors.  They ran, just not as well as they might.  They looked good and the operational quirks they displayed were part of the aura of having souped-up your car.  The motor heads who raced may have sorted some of the quirks out, but often they didn't do much more than jetting changes because they were only concerned about wide-open-throttle performance. 

The modifications identified for the '56 FoMoCo Holley 4000s are the 'tweaks' that will deliver a 2x4 set-up that has good throttle response, drive-ability, and the secondaries will actually open.  -Performance equal to what came off the Ford dealer lot in 1957 as an 'E' code car.  IMO, '56 FoMoCo single quad application carburetors can be modified to perform on the road just as well as the original '56 EDBs or '57 ECJs. 

I see the ECJs and EDBs as a simpler carburetor than what was used on the '56 single quad applications.  The ECJs and EDBs don't have a low speed to high speed transition circuit.  As John indicated, Holley added brass rings to the primary venturi boosters on the ECJs and EDBs to work against low speed over-carburetion that would likely be termed 'flat-spots'.     

Actually, you're off to a good start with what you have.  Using two of the same series of '56 Holley 4000s (you said you had two 'Ms') you're avoiding differences in carburetor internal circuitry that none of us have a handle on.

I hope you'll reconsider putting the 2x4s on the '56.  Smile
By Rocketman 88 - 11 Years Ago
AKA,
  Thanks for the attitude boost. I think that I will keep the set-up for now. When I get my 56 the worst that can happen is that I put the set-up on and if I'm not satisfied I can return to the original configuration.
  This all brings me too another subject, my dream car. I'm looking for a 1956 Crown Victoria, preferably blue and white (no pink or rose), continental kit, AT, PB and PS. None of these are cast in stone but I would like to get as close as possible to my dream. Would like to have at least a #2 or high #3 that doesn't need any serious work. Gone through several complete off frame restorations and am currently doing off frame on my 1957 "E" Bird and at my age I really don't want any more restoration projects. Any leads would be really appreciated.
Rocketman (Aka Mike)
By slumlord444 - 11 Years Ago
I ran the '56 Ford single quad carbs on my .57 Bird for many years back in the '60s and they worked fine. Only changes I made was to install the proper jetting for the dual quads. I set up the secondaries manually for drag racing. Worked ok with a 3 speed stick and 3.89 rear end. Eventually got the right carbs and drive ability is a little better with the vacuum secondaries working.
By NoShortcuts - 11 Years Ago
I subscribe to Hemmings Motor News, Mike.  It's available at bigger news stands on a monthly basis.  NOTE:  unusual magazine in that the index is on the last page!  Hehe

The way our economy has been, there have been a lot of 'special interest' cars offered for sale in the last several years.  Also, with the '50s cars getting older, the late '60s cars seem to be drawing more of the attention of those who are buying. 

My sense is that because of increasing availability (because of older owners who are looking to sell) and declining interest (due to the different demand of present younger buyers), there are some GooD '50s Fords available for less money than was spent by their long time owners getting them into the shape that they're in.

It's like the Model 'A's... they're past their prime in what they will bring in most cases.  A majority of the people who were interested in them have stopped being interested in owning one...

Hope the suggestion of Hemmings helps.