Holley 4160 Carb Hesitation


http://209.208.111.198/Topic23181.aspx
Print Topic | Close Window

By Nat Santamaria - 16 Years Ago
Hi Guys. This winter I installed my Holley 4160 carb on my 57 T-bird. It has the Fordomatic tranny. I have Pertonix ignition, Flamethrower Coil, new wires, new plugs (gapped at .044). I took it out today for a test run. Car starts easily, once warmed up it idles quite smoothly and quietly. When pulling away from a light it stumbles. I have to let up on the gas pedal a bit to keeping it from bogging and stalling. If I work the accelerator linkage sharply (car is at idle in park), the engine stumbles before it revs up. The new 4160 carb has 8.5 power valves. Float issue? Plug gap too wide? I did not have this issue before replacing the carb. Any Ideas?



Many thanks
By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
Is the carburetor the only thing you have changed/tweaked/tinkered with since the hesitation developed?
By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
Could be the accelerator pump. With the engine OFF, look down  into the carb. Open the throttle and watch to see a stream of gas come out of the shooters (two). Might be a bad diaphram in the pump or just needs the linkage adjusted. I don`t think the power valve would cause this. Pete
By rgrove - 16 Years Ago
First thing to check is that the carb was put together tightly enough at the factory (seriously).  I chased a VERY similar problem for a long time, messed with all kinds of power valves, jets , etc, only to finally (at the recommendation of this forum!) figure out that the base plate wasnt tight enough to the carb body - a manufacturing defect.  I tightened the screws on the bottom (have to take the carb off the engine - sorry), and it ran like a champ!

I know im not the only one to have this issue - i would start there first.

By crab - 16 Years Ago
Personally I would go back to .035 on the plugs unless you are running HEI, but if it works for you.... On the accelerator pump, when I rebuilt ours last week I found one of the tiny holes in the squirter was clogged shut completely. They are very small (.015-.020 perhaps) and took a bit to get things opened up, you can check operation  cold with the engine off by holding the choke open and opening the throttles, should see a nice spray.

On a side note, we run as low as .015 gap on our Superjets when going out in the ocean, to help combat misfire since saltwater is conductive.

By miker - 16 Years Ago
I had the same problem with a 4160 years ago, and it turned out it had (memory test) 55 jets instead of 65. Don't trust my memory, but check the jet ranges (should be on a web site somewhere) and check the primary jets when the carb is off and drained.
By crab - 16 Years Ago
Exactly what ours had #55. I wonder if todays fuel requires larger jets to run right?
By Nat Santamaria - 16 Years Ago
I checked the squirters and appear to be getting an even stream of fuel. The stock jets are #58. The only thing I have changed since the adding the new carb was opening the spark plug gap to .044. I used to gap them at .035. Maybe I will try re-setting the gaps.



Thanks for all your suggestions

I will keep you posted



Many thanks
By uncleaud - 16 Years Ago
If your letting up on the throttle to make it get better it sounds like too much fuel. First place I would look would be the transition slot that is just above the idle port and the edge of the throttle plate. The slot should be just visible but not more than a square. The throttle plate could be adjusted too high so that the transition slot is actually being used as part of the idle supply. The 8.5 power valve says that when vacuum falls below 8.5 lbs it opens and dumps fuel. If when you are accelerating the vacuum drops (and it does) this could also be causing it to get too much fuel. The standard power valve i believe is usually a 6.5

I just went through this with a new out of the box Holley on my 57 bird. Like was mentioned before, the plate screws were loose and both needle jets had bad o-rings. That corrected it works great now. Lucky for me the Holley is as simple as it is. When in doubt go back to the factory settings of 1.5 turns out on the idle screw and start from there.

By crab - 16 Years Ago
Interesting, my kit also had an 8.5 PV in it, the origiinal had no markings.
By Nat Santamaria - 16 Years Ago
I re gapped the plugs back to .036 - no difference. The Holley rep felt it was running to lean. So I adjusted the screws to richen the mixture- no difference. Upon acceleration it bogs down. If I really try to accelerate it sputters and hesitates. When I release the pedal a bit it is better and runs ok slowly gathering speed but doesn’t seem to be running cleanly or crisply.

I am wondering if I should have gone with 390 CFM (6.5 PV) as opposed to the 450 CFM (8.5 PV)



Man this is frustrating.
By crab - 16 Years Ago
Longshot, but check your vacume source for proper vacume, I think its ported, and that the advance is working both mechanical and vacume in the distributor. I recently discovered my Firebird that had been sitting in my heated shop for over a year had the shaft frozen up and did not advance at all. It had the same symptoms and would not accelerate at all practically, once I fixed it she hauls a$$...
By charliemccraney - 16 Years Ago
The 450 should be fine.

I have a lack of knowledge about Holley carbs but..

Isn't the screw an idle adjustment?  Does it make any difference in the way the engine runs?  An idle screw should provide a significant difference from all the way in to all the way out, assuming everything else is within reasonable operating parameters.  In the case of my Edelbrock, the engine will not keep running if either of the two idle screws is turned all of the way in - this is normal.  Too far out and it starts running funky.

According to the plugs, how is the engine running?

By Ted - 16 Years Ago

At first it sounded like the accelerator pump adjustment but with the additional info it's leaning more to a problem related with the carburetor internals and specifically the gasket between the metering block and the main body.  But check the accelerator adjustment first anyhow as it only takes a minute.  At full throttle, there should only be ~0.015” of clearance remaining at the adjustment location before the diaphagm itself is in a position to bottom out.  If the accelerator pump linkage is loose or sloppy in the idle position, hesitation issues will come to the forefront.

 

If that checks out okay, then check for the power valve bottoming out in the power valve cavity and not allowing the metering block to fully cinch down on the metering block gasket.  Also check the main body where the metering block mates up to it to insure it’s not warped.  Just take a straight edge and check the main body in both diagonal directions across the face of it.

 

Ignition timing being too far retarded or the vacuum advance chamber not working will also create some off idle hesitation issues but your descriptions points to a lack of fuel or leaness as you lay into the throttle after you’re already moving.  Does the engine slow down at idle when the vacuum advance to the distributor is unhooked?  If so, then you’re either on direct vacuum to the distributor or as uncleaud brings up, too much transition slot is exposed in the primary throttle bores at idle.  But check that the mechanical advance is working anyhow.

By rgrove - 16 Years Ago
Have you checked to make sure the base plate is tight enough?  Otherwise there will be vaccuum leaks which will cause those symptoms.  I would certainly check that before taking it apart.

You could try spraying carb cleaner around the carb while idling.  If speed changes, you know its a vaccuum leak and not an issue with jets/power valve, etc.

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Nat,Something else to check is the float level.Make sure the motor is cold.If you unscrew the plug on each float bowl the fuel should just trickle out of the hole.The power valve should be rated as half of the engine vaccuum reading at idle with car in drive if its auto.To use the 8.5 valve you would have to have 17 in. vacuum.Many of these carbs use the 6.5 power valve so it wont open until engine vaccuum drops below 6.5 in vac.
By Ted - 16 Years Ago
oldcarmark (3/5/2009)
The power valve should be rated as half of the engine vaccuum reading at idle with car in drive if its auto.To use the 8.5 valve you would have to have 17 in. vacuum.  Many of these carbs use the 6.5 power valve so it wont open until engine vaccuum drops below 13 in vac.

Mark.  I’ll have to disagree with you on this one.  The rule of thumb for power valves is to insure that the opening point for a power valve is at least 2 in/hg below the manifold reading at idle.  With an automatic transmission, this means taking the manifold reading with the transmission in ‘drive’.  A #65 power valve opens when the vacuum drops below 6½ in/hg.  A number 85 power valve opens when the manifold vacuum drops below 8½ in/hg.  Don’t know who originally started the misinformation regarding using a power valve that’s ½ the manifold vacuum but its definitely all over the web now and is not the correct way to properly tune the power enrichment system.  Each combination will vary somewhat in power valve requirements but the #65 power valves are generally a good fit in most applications as they will remain closed until the manifold vacuum drops below 6½ in/hg.  In rare cases, a power valve with a higher opening point will remove a surge condition that can occur in some cruising and light acceleration situations.  Hence the different options for power valves.  And for those that really like to tune, there are ‘staged’ power valves with two stages or metering for two different opening rates.  Many of the oem equipped Holleys for the trucks had these 'staged' valves.

 

Another thing to remember about power valves as that their opening rating will change as they age.  As power valves get older, the diaphagm stiffens thereby making the rating artifically higher or opening at earlier or higher vacuum rates.  At rest a power valve on a non-running engine is open and as soon as the engine starts, it closes.  An aged power valve can eventually get to the point that it will not close at all.

By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello Ted,

I got the info about power valves from the Holley Performance catalogue."If the vehicle has a manual transmission,take vacuum reading with engine thoroughly warmed up and at idle.If the vehicle is equipped with an automatic transmission,take the vacuum reading with engine thoroughly warmed up and idling in gear.In either case ,the power valve selected should be 1/2 the intake manifold vacuum reading taken.EXAMPLE:13"Hg vacuum reading divided gy 2=6.5 power valve.If your reading divided by 2 lands on an even # you should select the next lower power valve.EXAMPLE:8"Hg vacuum reading divided by 2=4.Since there is no #4 power valve you should use 3.5".I would think this is what is being picked up off the internet directly from Holley.In Nat's case he has the 8.5 power valve.Is possible the valve is allowing too enriched mixture too soon?I seem to recall his motor is completely stock.When I installed my 390 CFM Holley last year I had to increase the main jets to #54 not 56 as Nats is equipped with.The power valve on mine is #65(6.5).I have no bog or hesitation during transisition from off idle until the powe valve opens up.I am sure my 56 Fairlane is a heavier car than Nats T-Bird and doesn't need fuel sooner than when the 6.5 valve opens up.Maybe he should try to jet one size smaller and change the power valve?I am sure Nat is pretty frustrated at this point.If you recall he bought (I think brand new)carb which he has now because the one he paid to have rebuilt didn't work properly.Is it possible that the carb(s) are not the problem and maybe something mechanical is causing the problem he is having?If I recall some of the symptoms were similar to last time.Maybe something like the ground wire inside dist losing ground when the advance starts moving?

By GREENBIRD56 - 16 Years Ago
Nat - Do you have an auto (Ford-o-Matic) tranny in your bird?

Because of the second gear start - mine is very sensitive to idle speed. Raising it 50 revs got rid of the hesitation - but puts too much torque against the converter to suit me when sitting at a light. When I drop it back - you have to put an egg under your foot. Starting in low  - no problem.

By Pete 55Tbird - 16 Years Ago
Nat. Time for some HOMEWORK on your part. We need to know. !, what is your engine manifold vacuum? Do you  have a timing lite? Is BOTH the distributor vacuum AND mechanical advance operating correctly? Can you dis-connect the hose to the distributor advance, plug it then connect a SECOND hose to the distributor advance. Then idle the engine with the timing lite on the marker on the balancer and suck on the open end of Second rubber hose and WATCH the Timing ADVANCE. Goose the throttle to see if the mechanical advance changes the timing on the timing lite. FORGET THE POWER VALVES. Not an issue. Lack of fuel when you press down on the gas pedal= accelerator pump. TELL US AGAIN in GREAT DETAIL just what is going on. You want a solution DO SOME WORK. It is really that simple. Pete
By Nat Santamaria - 16 Years Ago
Hi guys.

1957 Tbird 312, Fordomatic.

As a recall I am getting a hesitation from a standing stop. When I am up to speed and punch it I get a flat spot and then it goes however it doesn’t seem to run cleanly. It starts very easily and It idles very smooth. I have rock solid steady reading of 17 on my Vacuum gauge in drive. I do not have a Timing Light.

I checked my plugs and they are completely spotless - Ground strap looks polished clean, porcelain pure white - electrode is clean - Each mixture screw is out 1 1/2 turns. If I try to richen the mixture it starts to idle rough and begins puffing black smoke. I did the paper clip experiment on the vacuum secondary pump shaft - The paper clip did not move at all. Perhaps the spring is too strong.

I have a flamethrower coil, pertronix, plugs gapped at .044

Accelerator Pump adjustment is correct.

Ground strap in distributor is good. I actually have it extended going to the block.



I have a bit more info my new Holley 4160 carb 465 CFM

• 8.5 Power Valve - My original 4150 had 6.5

• Green spring for Vacuum Secondaries - My original 4150 had the silver which is lighter spring.

• Primary Jets - 122-57 My original 4150 had the same

• Nozzle 0.025 My original 4150 had the same



I hope this helps.






By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello Nat,

What was the original problem which made you think the cause was the carb?I know you had it rebuilt and were still having problems and decided to replace it altogether.Are you having any of the same problems as you originally did before starting on the carb rebuild/replacement?It is possible that the cause is not carb related at all.If you don't have a timing light you can't check where you are as far as timing and also cannot tell if the advance on the distributor is working correctly.You should  at least check the vacuum advance by putting a length of hose on and applying a mouth suction.You should feel resistance which means the diaphragm is intact.If no resistance the advance is not working properly which can give the symptoms you are asking about.In order to "read" the sparkplugs you need to drive at various speeds for a distance.Simply running short distance or idling will not give accurate feedback on plugs condition.As a suggestion it may be worth your while to have a professional autoelectric shop run a scope test on the motor and see if you don't perhaps have a problem with the ignition breaking down.As I think I mentioned last  time there is a braided  copper ground wire running from the breaker plate to the distributor body providing complete ground circuit for your Pertronix ignition.Check it and be sure its not broken under the breakerplate causing "ön-off"as the advance cuts in.Don't just look at it-pull up and make sure its still attached underneath where you can't see it.

By PF Arcand - 16 Years Ago
Nat; Mark is right on, if you don't even know if the engine is timed right, don't adjust anything, until you get that checked out!
By Nat Santamaria - 16 Years Ago
Thanks guys I will have a mechanic check the timing. My original problem with my old 4150 carb was the right side needle mixture screw adjustment would do nothing. I could screw it all the way in and the car would keep running. The car would run really rich. Black sooty spark plugs, large patches of soot on the ground etc. I had it rebuilt twice. The only other change other than my new carb is the Flamethrower coil. I have not touched anything else. The car ran very well with good gas mileage before my 4150 failed.
By crab - 16 Years Ago
And from memory, the pertronix is straight battery voltage, you can't use a resistor as I found out on my boat when I switched, they use a short section of resistance wire inline.
By oldcarmark - 16 Years Ago
Hello Nat,

If the only thing you changed besides the carb is the coil have you(A) tried the old coil?(B) Have you checked to make sure its not hooked up backwards as far as + and- to the correct connections?Are you running the balast resistor hooked up as stock because I believe the flamethrower is a high voltage unit that does NOT use the ballast resistor.Someone else on this site using that coil could verify this because I am not 100% sure about that.From what you told about the carb as far as jet sizes etc I don't think the carb is far off as far as settup.It should run well enough to drive it.I really feel you have a problem somewhere else like ignition.

By Ted - 16 Years Ago
Nat Santamaria (3/19/2009)
I will have a mechanic check the timing.

While your mechanic is setting your ignition timing with a timing light, have him also check out the distributor’s vacuum advance system.  This can also be done with the timing light.

By crab - 16 Years Ago
crab (3/4/2009)
Exactly what ours had #55. I wonder if todays fuel requires larger jets to run right?
Follow up, now that our car is running, it runs great with the rebuild. No hesatation, crisp all the way through including WOT on the freeway.