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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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So my '58 292 f100 had been starting but doing so with a bit of attitude. It would turn over fine but would take a while to actually start and I was worried that with the winter coming it would only get worse and I would end up burning out a starter. So I took it into the garage and tuned the carb and played with the timing a little figuring that would fix it. Well I got it running really nice, got rid of a little hesitation I was experience off stops and it just ran and sounded great. That was yesterday. This morning I go to start it and it just does not want to start, it sound like it is having a rough time kicking over, almost like it is trying to fire a little early. It finally did start but I definitely dont want to have that be the way it starts every morning. I will say that once it was warmed up it ran like a dream again but I did stop it and when I tried to restart it at work this morning it still was a pita but was a little quicker to start. Any help or suggestions would be great.
Thanks
Cbass
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By YellowWing - 14 Years Ago
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You don't really make clear if it is slow to crank or cranks fine but just doesn't start. If it is cranking slow and you just had the starter redone I would check all battery connections for clean connections and tightness. Also check the condition of the battery. If it cranks fine but does not start, at what air temp? If cold, check your choke setting. Too rich could cause flooding that would not be a problem after warm up. If too lean pumping the accelerator while cranking will help. Mike
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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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Thanks Mike, before I tuned it it would crank fast before finally starting and after tuning it cranks slower and has a hard feel to it before starting. As far as the temp, it is in the 40's hear right now but has been doing it regardless of the temp. It also does it (now) regardless if the engine is warm or not. As far as the choke goes, I have never really messed with this. I usually just pull it all the way out until it starts and then slowly lower it to keep it just high enough to make sure it doesnt stall out. Let me know what you guys think, is it the timing or maybe something as easy as the choke?
Cbass
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By Pete 55Tbird - 14 Years Ago
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It seems like you now have too much initial advance from the distributor. Why not try to loosen the distributor clamp down bolt and turn the distributor a LITTLE in the retard direction. This is only a band air to trouble-shoot what your real problem is. Take a compression check first because if too low not much can be done. If the compression, ignition SPARK and fuel are all good then work on the ignition advance setting. Pete
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By Park Olson - 14 Years Ago
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Check all CABLE connections, add a direct ground cable from the starter to the frame.
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By rick55 - 14 Years Ago
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I'm with Pete. You have the ignition too far advanced at idle. These engines will run fine with lots of advance but will be a PITA if you have too much on trying to start. Retard the ignition a little and see how you go.
Regards
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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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Thanks guys and that does make sense except that it would just turn over and over before I over advanced the timing. I posted this on the Ford Truck site and they seam to agree with you guys but also feel that I may have a fuel pump issue and that is why it would turn over until it built pressure and then start. I know have to figure out how to test this theory.
Thanks again.
Cbass
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By Grizzly - 14 Years Ago
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Cbass, It's reasonably typical that a lot of older machines see a drop in ignition voltage during startup. This can be for a number of reasons one is age and a buildup of corrosion on the electrical connections on the path to the coil the other is bad design. If you have a multimeter and an assistant check the battery voltage this should be above 12v and closer to 14v. then check your voltage at the coil. It should be the same or probably slightly less. Have your assistant crank your engine while you check the voltage at the coil. if there is a significant drop you will need to get more voltage to the coil. A common fix is to run a lead directly from your battery, using the signal wire from your ignition to trigger a relay. this way you will have full voltage at the coil. If you want you can try a temporary wire from your battery to the coil to see if this cures the problem. Good luck with it. Warren
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By charliemccraney - 14 Years Ago
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I doubt it's the fuel pump. If it will run and idle fine once started, then the pump is very likely functioning correctly. If the fuel drains or boils out of the float bowl in between starts, it can take quite a few revolutions for the pump to fill the bowl before it will run. So I'd make sure fuel is not getting out of the bowl. Once that is confirmed, devise a safe way to supply fuel to the carburetor using a gravity feed or get a remote fuel supply which is actually designed for this. This will eliminate the pump from the equation. If the situation still exists, then it's very likely not the pump.
Do you know where your initial timing is?
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By gekko13 - 14 Years Ago
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I agree with the others who state that the fuel pump is probably not the problem. Here lately, I have seen a rash of "mysterious" problems popping up due to component failures such condensors, coils and the like. These parts are purchased new, in name brand packaging and turn out to be crap in a matter of days or less. Check your basic pieces. They may be defective when installed. (Some) manufacturers are producing parts to fit a price point and if they actually perform, that's just coincidental, IMO. It's a sorry state of affairs but I have seen it first hand.
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By miker - 14 Years Ago
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This is a bit off the wall, but in line with gekko13's comment. I had an intermittent problem some years ago, and finally found the points were hanging open and varying the timing, or not firing at all. I had the plugs out, the dist cap off, and was bumping the motor to check that the balancer hadn't slipped. I looked at the dist to see if the rotor was at #1, and realized the points were open, and not contacting the dist cam. A little WD-40 solved that for a bit, but when it got erratic again, the timing light showed it had come back. In your case, that doesn't seem likely as it would fire retarded, not advanced, but you might check. If it's really retarded, it might jump to the next plug and become advanced, if you have a hot coil.
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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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Ok, I think I have it all nailed down. I checked the fuel and all of that checked out so went on to check electric and that was fine as well so I was pulling my hair out. So I retarded the timing a little just to make the starting better for the time being and while i was in there I double checked that after sitting for a number of hrs it was still squirting gas. I took off the air cleaner and looked down in there and gave it a few manual pumps and i got nice streams. I put it back together and get in the car and it starts right up no problem at all. I think that the problem might have been a impatient operator. When I gave it some time after giving it some gas it starts right up, just goes to show that it can be the easiest things some time. Now I want to get that timing a little more advanced because I loved the way it drove when it was all the way advanced. Is there a way to get it to drive like that but not be that advanced upon initial starting?
Thanks again guys, you all are the best.
Cbass
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By GREENBIRD56 - 14 Years Ago
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One of the reasons I have tuned my outfit to use "live" manifold vacuum is that it starts well at 10° initial - then the vacuum advance kicks it up at idle. To make this work I have the total vacuum advance shut back to 7°-8°. My total mechanical is set at 36° - then the vacuum boosts it to about 44° max at low load cruise. The other feature I have used is the one in the Duraspark II controller that detects operation of the starter solenoid and retards it another 6°. That allows it to start at 4° BTDC - then immediately kicks it up to 17° when it has manifold vacuum and the starter disengages.
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By Hoosier Hurricane - 14 Years Ago
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One thing to keep in mind if you have an Autolite carb. The accelerator pump is spring actuated, so if you pump the accelerator rapidly, the pump doesn't have a chance to empty itself and return for another stroke, so you end up flexing the spring and not really pumping fuel.
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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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Steve- how do you adjust the vacuum advance?
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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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Ok, worked on it a bit more and got the hard start completely gone going back to the 10 degree initial timing but now I am back to having a hesitation when I first step on the gas, no matter what gear or even in neutral. The carb has been recently rebuilt and I checked and the accelurator pump shoots out a nice stream when the gas is hit. Any ideas? I now this is a different topic and maybe I should start a new thread?
Thanks All
Cbass
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By rick55 - 14 Years Ago
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You don't mention what carb you have on your car but if a Holley, it could be one of three things. First the float level is too low, second the accelerator pump clearance is wrong - there should be zero when the throttle closed and about .015" when full throttle and third you have the primary butterflies open too far exposing the transfer slot.
Thre is another post with a member having problems getting his 56 to idle correctly that may be relevant to you.
If an Autolite check your float level.
Regards
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By cbass139 - 14 Years Ago
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It is the holley 2 barrel, the float level is correct but I will have to check the other two things and will read the other post you suggested. I will have to see if I can find a way to check on the butterflies being to far open. In the mean time thanks again.
Cbass
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By Riz - 14 Years Ago
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Ok I might as well jump in here as I am in the same boat but a little different. I am running 3x2 with holley 94s on a 292 with g heads. I have the initial timing set at 10* it has a Mallory elec ignition set to stock 24* total. The truck starts ok when absolutely cold but takes a few minutes to warm up and idle with the choke no big deal. The issue is that after running for a time and then sitting for more than a few minutes is a bear to start. I thought thought the carbs were leaking so took them and got them flow tested they are ok. I put 1/4 phenolic spacers on but think that they are still leaking down.
It still acts like there is a vac leak and it is about making me nuts. The manifold heat riser dumps right below the primary carb. I was thinking of cutting some aluminum and fabricating a restrictor plate for the heat risers. Or do you think retarding the timing a few degrees would help?since it starts well cold I am guessing it is more a heat soak problem then timing.
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By rick55 - 14 Years Ago
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If it starts well cold but is difficult to start when hot that suggests that you are flooding the engine or it is running too rich. When you say that the engine is hard to start, is it cranking fine but won't fire up. If you hold the throttle flat when cranking does it start easier.
An engine that fires up easy when cold without choke certainly suggests that it is on the rich side and this engine may then be difficult to start when hot.
Check all your float levels and needles and seats on the inlets.
Regards
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By gekko13 - 14 Years Ago
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Riz, how much fuel pressure are you seeing at the carburetor ? Those old 94's and Strombergs didn't like much pressure. They weren't called "leakers" for nothing.
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By Riz - 14 Years Ago
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The carbs may be leaking down some but checking the plugs if anything they are on the lean side and slightly more gray but look ok. I do hold it to the floor when starting when hot it turns over fine but takes a few to catch. it acts like it is flooded but no other symptoms, no blast of smoke at start up or odor. I have had a line camera through the carb and no sign of fuel. I am running 3.5 lb on the fuel line to the carb. There is a little weeping from the bases but not mich at all. It has an adjustable dial regulator, but I have a pressure gage in the primary banjo. It acts like the ignition is too advanced or a vacuum leak when hot but I sure cannot find it.
One of the other forums had some info on sizing down the PCV. Which would make sense acting different hot than cold if there was too much case pressure vs manifold.
I am out of ideas and soliciting anything to try and come up with a plan before I start chasing every gremlin in the garage.
I do appreciate all of the assistance.
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By Pete 55Tbird - 14 Years Ago
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First, nice looking truck. If you think that the PCV is causing a vacuum leak why not take a pair of vce-grips and close the hose to the PCV and see if it makes any difference. Cheap and easy. Pete
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By Riz - 13 Years Ago
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Pete,
Thanks, actually had a little time to play with it. First the good news: The PCV is a hard line so I disconnected and blocked and everything worked fine. Examined the line and found a small worn hole that was covered by the hose bracket --vacuum problem solved. 
Took her out and throttle tip in was better no hesitation and better hp. Took it back and figured I would look at the timing and dial it in: timing is skipping every little bit so I figure I have a worn tooth or chain stretches. So looks like I get to upgrade timing set and might as well do a new Mummert 265* performance cam while I have the cover off. Nothing like a needed repair to justify an upgrade.
Aah well.
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By PF Arcand - 13 Years Ago
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Riz: Check your crank pulley. The balancer may be so dried up it's slipping. Due to age this problem shows up fairly often.
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By Riz - 13 Years Ago
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I had never heard of it slipping like that. I will have to check that out. It does not really act like it is that far out a little extra vibration. But that would make some sense.
As much as I was looking forward to getting the new cam, I would also prefer the no expense adjustment route.
Thanks I was about ready to start ordering parts, now I can at least try to adjust the damper first.
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