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Setting spark advance curve. Where to begin?

Posted By peeeot 16 Years Ago
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peeeot
Posted 16 Years Ago
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I bought a distributor from Advance Auto Parts for my '59 to replace the Loadomatic that was incorrectly matched to the Autolite 2100 carb when I bought the car.  Using a timing light, a hand vacuum pump, and the specs in the factory manual, I have observed the spark advance this distributor is delivering, and I don't believe it is anything like what it ought to be.

The motor I currently have in the car is a rebuilt 292 block with '56 272 truck heads.  I don't know anything about the cam or overbore or any other potential modifications.  So, the specs listed in the shop manual are probably not ideal for my engine, though they are perhaps a good starting point. 

I have found information on setting advance curve online, but it is all written with drag racing in mind.  I don't want to race my car; I just want it to work the best it can.  I especially value smooth running, good throttle response, and torque--who doesn't?  But it will probably never see redline in my hands, and the pedal will rarely hit the floor.  Also, I can't afford dyno time.

With all of this in mind, what can I do to find a good advance curve for my engine? 

1954 Crestline Victoria 312 4-bbl, 3-speed overdrive

charliemccraney
Posted 16 Years Ago
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Take a look at this post.

http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic12471-3-1.aspx

You want about 26 degrees mechanical advance and 10 - 12 degrees initial


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peeeot
Posted 16 Years Ago
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Ah, yes!  Very useful information, thank you!  But it raises a few more questions.

First: About the specs listed in the shop manual.  It lists a distributor rpm and an advance value in degrees.  BOTH of these figures need to be doubled if I'm using a tach and a timing light to measure the advance in a running motor, right?  As in, if the manual calls for 2 degrees advance at 500 rpm, I would look for 4 degrees of advance at 1000 engine rpm?  If that's so, then I've been doing it wrong--I was doubling rpm but not advance :/

Second:  At what engine rpm do I want to have 26* mechanical advance? 

Third:  What about primary mechanical advance, for low rpms?  Is the factory spec a good guideline for that part of the curve?

Fourth:  What about vacuum advance?  Since it's easier to adjust, is it best to just add as much as possible as soon as possible without pinging? 

1954 Crestline Victoria 312 4-bbl, 3-speed overdrive

Doug T
Posted 16 Years Ago
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Hi Pee,

Assuming you want to do this without a distributor machine, just on the car, here is a start (assuming you have just a simple timing light without a degree knob.)  First of all you need to clean your harmonic balancer and paint it white where the scale is.  Then you need to extend the degree scale by copying the 0 to 10Deg scale on the Harm bal onto a stiff paper card. Set the zero mark of the card on the ten Deg mark on the balancer and with a Sharpie add on the harm balancer another 10 degrees.  Do this three more times until you have 50 deg total around your harm. Balancer. Darken the 10 20 30 and so on marks so you can tell them from the others marks.

Get the engine to run at whatever idle speed you can achieve, the slower the better with the vacuum advance disconnected.  You could use zero for the timing setting although it might not run at that.  Now with your tach and Timing light note what the distributor gives for advance at idle.  Then starting 1000 RPM and going up to say 4500 RPM in 500 RPM intervals use the timing light to note the actual advance.  You can do all this with the car standing in the garage in neutral.  If you used 6 deg static as a starting setting then subtract 6 deg from each reading.  This will give you the actual centrifugal advance curve for your distributor.  With a modern carb this is the only part of the dist. that provides advance with the carb a wide open throttle.   

While others may have a different opinion, with a stock engine and a 2BBl you probably need something like 40 to 42 Deg total centrifugal advance.  Also Y's seem to like a little more than the 3 or 6 deg static advance specified in the manuals.  Assuming that you want 42 deg and you want to set the initial advance to 10 deg instead of 6 deg you should have something like 32 deg centrifugal advance built into your dist.  It should be all in by 3000 to 3500 RPM.

The vacuum advance adds to the centrifugal advance at part throttle.  At wide open throttle the vacuum signal to the distributor is near zero.  Vacuum advance is harder to measure and dial in.  Basically you need to put a vacuum meter on a tee between the carb and dist.  Then with the car driving on the road you need to listen for knock.  The engine speed should be in the middle of the normal range say about 2500 RPM.  If it knocks note the vacuum reading.  Then working in the vacuum canister, reduce the advance at that particular vaccum reading.  This is trial and error and pretty hard to optomize because the engine must be under load to get it right.  The main problem with just retarding the dist when you get knock under part throttle load is that you also retard the centrifugal advance mechanism which hurts wide open throttle power.

It is really a lot easier to have someone with a distributor machine do all of this.

Doug T

The Highlands, Louisville, Ky.


peeeot
Posted 16 Years Ago
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Thanks Doug!  I've called/asked around locally for anyone who has a test stand or knows someone who has one but everyone shrugs or asks what a distributor test stand is. hehe.  Kind of surprising to me, honestly.

With regard to vacuum advance adjustment--I have one of the old-type advance units where you unscrew the end and can add or remove washers to alter the spring rate.  I was thinking I could fiddle with those washers until I had as much advance under load without pinging...

1954 Crestline Victoria 312 4-bbl, 3-speed overdrive

Hoosier Hurricane
Posted 16 Years Ago
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As I remember those take-apart diaphragms, there is also a fiber sleeve inside the spring.  By adding small washers to that sleeve, the total amount of vacuum advance can be changed as well as shimming the spring for advance rate.

John - "The Hoosier Hurricane"
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GREENBIRD56
Posted 16 Years Ago
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This is the shimmed can.............

and these are the parts................

the fiber tube is at right. The end nut on this unit doesn't have a way to retain shims for the tube - but it isn't an original Ford part either. You could substitute a longer piece of similar tubing in this one. The carbon fiber shaft of a modern hunting arrow comes to mind.....but other materials would work.

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/9ea2bf28-00c4-4772-9ac7-d154.jpg 
 Steve Metzger       Tucson, Arizona

oldcarmark
Posted 16 Years Ago
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I realize the distributor is "new" but you could still swap the advance unit for one that adjusts with the allen key I think.Seems to me its much easier to adjust instead of keep playing with shims and spacers.Would the 2 different style advance be interchangeable?

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Uploads/Images/a82cee8f-be33-4d66-b65d-fcd8.jpg  http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/339ed844-0bc3-4c73-8368-5dd3.jpg
GREENBIRD56
Posted 16 Years Ago
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Mark -That recent "Mustang Monthly" article I mentioned in another thread probably could help determine this vacuum pot interchange issue. The early dizzy is an "Autolite" and the later is a "Motorcraft". Apparently the '64 and '65 Mustangs have a similar change-over situation at that date.

I don't have a copy here at the office or I would try to scan it for you.....might be Monday before I could get that done. Send me a PM with an email address if you want a copy and I'll send it to you as an Adobe "PDF" file.

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/uploads/images/9ea2bf28-00c4-4772-9ac7-d154.jpg 
 Steve Metzger       Tucson, Arizona

Pete 55Tbird
Posted 16 Years Ago
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Hello:

  You asked where to begin on distributor advance curve. I would suggest start by dropping in the new distributor, setting the initial timing to about 10 % BTDC with the vacuum advance pulled and plugged. Then hook up a manifold vacuum gage and at idle out of gear advance the distributor for highest vacuum reading. Back off the advance about 2 inches of vacuum and take it for a spin. Unless you are using a 5 speed and 4.11 rear gears thats really all you need to do. The rest is just to sell Hot Rod magazines to guys. Pete



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