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Another theoretical question

Posted By joey 15 Years Ago
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joey
Posted 15 Years Ago
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Ford specs for the 1956 Y block called for 3 degrees BTDC of initial timing if the car had a manual trans, or 6 degrees if it was equipped with a Fordomatic. This was the case across the board, no matter if it was a 272, 292, or 312. OK.

However, I read in an archived article of Ford Muscle Magazine that dyno testing has shown that most small block Fords with compression ratios of between 9.5:1 and 10.5:1 achieve peak horsepower at 35-38 degrees of timing total (initial plus advance). And that SBF engines with compression between 9.0:1 and 9.5:1 make peak HP at 38-42 degrees total. 

Compression ratios for the Ys, at least up until 1957 to my knowledge, were 9.0 or below. For example in '56 it was 8.4 for an automatic and 8.0 if you had a manual, I guess because they either changed the heads or the gaskets (?). So, to continue their line of reasoning, small block engines falling within this range of compression would probably dyno best at, say, 44 total degrees. Which, to break it down a little further, could be 14 inital plus 30 along your advance curve, whether centrifugal or vacuum or both.

Obviously all this varies from setup to setup, but in general, isn't it fair to say that most common performance upgrades (cam, heads, exhaust, etc.) would lead the tuner toward more timing rather than less. So I guess the question is, why is it that when you tell somebody you're running your Y-block with 14 or so degrees initial timing, they look at you as if you're doing something wacko...?

oldcarmark
Posted 15 Years Ago
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Hey Joey.Regardless of wether the Y-Block is stock or hi-po  it likes more advance than stock specs call for.Changing from the stock distributor on the pre 56's to the dual advance 57+ distributors makes a big difference as well.I have the later distributor on my basically stock 56 and I set the timing using a vacuum gauge.Advance the timing until the vacuum gauge stops increasing and then back off the timing until it drops 1/2 inch vacuum reading.Lock it down and go for a drive.If it pings back timing down a little until it stops or if it is hard to start hot back timing off.Works well.

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John Mummert
Posted 15 Years Ago
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The Ford timing specs were a joke. Most engines need at least 10 degrees BTDC inital advance. If you have a hotter than stock cam this number goes up to 12-14.

Lower compression engines do need more total advance than high compression engines. I have dyno tested at as much 42 degrees total for 9.5:1 engine down to 35 degrees for a 12:1 engine.

This is a major problem with 1957 distributors. They have too much mechanical advance, as much as 34 degrees at the crank. If you run 12-14 initial and have 34 in the dizzy you're asking for trouble. The later dizzys like he 62-64 truck 292's have as little as 24 degrees. Then you can run 14 initial + 24 and be okay.

When dyno testing a Y-Block it seems critical to get the jetting right before looking for final timing numbers. If the engine is fat it won't make more power with more than 34 degrees. You must lean it out, more than dyno operator thinks is safe, 14:1 or so then look for best timing. That's the only way I've ever made any power with a Y.

I have run a Y on the dyno at 15:1 A/F to get maximum power. This was measured with Superflow air hat and fuel turbine. Lamda readings (O2 sensor in exhaust) will be a little richer.

http://ford-y-block.com 

20 miles east of San Diego, 20 miles north of Mexico

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MarkMontereyBay
Posted 15 Years Ago
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I have the original tachometer drive tach on my 57 Bird. Can that distributor mechanical advance be modified to give 24 degrees advance? Is using 10 degrees initial plus 24 mechanical advance streetable using 91 octane fuel available in California with a stock 312 D code cam ? Thanks.



Mark

57 Black Tbird 312/auto



46yblock
Posted 15 Years Ago
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I rebuilt a dist. using a new points cam/rotor assembly that limits dist. advance to 20 degrees at the crank.  Havent put it into service yet.

Mike, located in the Siskiyou mountains, Southern, OR 292 powered 1946 Ford 1/2 ton, '62 Mercury Meteor, '55 Country Squire (parting out), '64 Falcon, '54 Ford 600 tractor.


DANIEL TINDER
Posted 15 Years Ago
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John Mummert (3/27/2010)
The Ford timing specs were a joke. Most engines need at least 10 degrees BTDC inital advance. If you have a hotter than stock cam this number goes up to 12-14.



Lower compression engines do need more total advance than high compression engines. I have dyno tested at as much 42 degrees total for 9.5:1 engine down to 35 degrees for a 12:1 engine.



This is a major problem with 1957 distributors. They have too much mechanical advance, as much as 34 degrees at the crank. If you run 12-14 initial and have 34 in the dizzy you're asking for trouble. The later dizzys like he 62-64 truck 292's have as little as 24 degrees. Then you can run 14 initial + 24 and be okay.



When dyno testing a Y-Block it seems critical to get the jetting right before looking for final timing numbers. If the engine is fat it won't make more power with more than 34 degrees. You must lean it out, more than dyno operator thinks is safe, 14:1 or so then look for best timing. That's the only way I've ever made any power with a Y.



I have run a Y on the dyno at 15:1 A/F to get maximum power. This was measured with Superflow air hat and fuel turbine. Lamda readings (O2 sensor in exhaust) will be a little richer.




John,



I understand that engines with a hotter cam running restricted induction, or a smaller-than-optimal CFM carb can stand a higher CR (?). Could this restricted intake situation also allow more total advance or a leaner AF ratio that might otherwise be destructive, I wonder?

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA
joey
Posted 15 Years Ago
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Gentlemen, what would you identify as the "ideal" distributor setup? There are a lot of options out there for Ys.
Ted
Posted 15 Years Ago
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I have a personal preference for the MSD distributors as they are quite flexible in adjusting the ignition curves very quickly and easily.  But the stock distributors with a little bit of work can be made to do what you want.

Doing a search will yield quite a bit of info on ignition curves.  Here are some links to get you started.

http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic30870-3-1.aspx

http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic34115-3-1.aspx

http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Topic40288-3-1.aspx  

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)




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