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2x4 distributor vacuum signal

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NoShortcuts
Posted 13 Years Ago
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I’m beginning to modify two ’56 Holley single quad application carbs to work appropriately together on a Ford 2x4 manifold. The two carbs I'm using have the same serial numbers which helps to insure that the internal metered orifices and passageways are equivalent.



Per Forum member postings, I’m modifying the primary venturi boosters by adding brass restrictor washers, modifying the power valve springs, changing primary jets, resizing the secondary jets, adding secondary venturi signal balance tubes, and changing the vacuum secondary diaphragm springs to ones with tension equivalent to the ‘56 and ’57 Ford 2x4 OEM units.



Can I somehow modify the ‘56 teapot’s vacuum signal to the distributor to be correct for a ’57 or newer FoMoCo distributor vacuum advance mechanism? Ted Eaton has described and pictured how to modify the vacuum circuitry on Holley 94s to permit this application. How can such a modification be accomplished on a Holley 4000?



Related question… IF the ’56 teapot can be modified to provide the appropriate vacuum signal for the ’57 up distributor, is the signal from one carburetor adequate to actuate the ’57 style distributor vacuum chamber, or with a 2x4 set-up do I need to connect the two carbs together to obtain adequate signal?



I realize that the original ’57 Ford 2x4 set-ups only used the vacuum signal from the rear carb to the distributor. However, I suspect that the ‘E’ code distributors used a different vacuum diaphragm than what is available over the counter today.



IF this modification is not doable, I’m thinking the only alternative is to use a centrifugal advance only distributor mechanism…



Thanks for any help on this. –Appreciated! Smile




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Ted
Posted 13 Years Ago
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The Holley Teapot can be modified to work with the ’57 and up distributor. To make this happen, you will essentially adding another hose connection point to the front of the carb and blocking the original port that originally fed vacuum to the distributor.  In stock form, the ported vacuum signal channel in the carb is routed to the spark advance valve which works in tandem with a venturi produced vacuum in providing a tailored vacuum signal to the Load-O-Matic distributor.  For the later model distributors that require a staged or ported vacuum signal, then what is desired is for that vacuum signal to simply be controlled by the movement of the primary throttle blades and not the spark advance valve. The spark advance valve is that unit that looks like a Holley power valve but is screwed in the passenger side (right side for those of you Down Under) of the carb.

 

While there are several different ways in which to achieve a ‘true’ staged or ported vacuum signal on these particular carbs, I’ll simply go through the methodology that I consider is the simplest.  First remove the small slotted screw plug on the underside of the carb that seals up the passageway that aligns with the original distributor vacuum port opening.  That particular screw has a long stem on it which we will discuss again later.  Now find the aluminum plug on the front of the carb that is aligned with the hole that exits just above the throttle blades when they are either closed or in the proper idle position.  Looking at the front of the carb, there are three of these plugs approximately 1½”-2” above the base of the carb.  You want to be working on the aluminum plug that’s on the far left of all of them.  I’ve found that simply drilling and tapping the plug for an 8-32 screw with a head allows the plug to be easily pulled out without damaging the existing hole.  Once the plug is removed, you have a ¼” hole in the carb casting staring back at you.  If you peer into the hole, you’ll see the small hole that goes into the throttle and is where the ported vacuum signal originates.

 

At this point, you’ll want to take a   1¼”–1½” length of ¼” O.D. tube and tap into that new hole until it bottoms out.  This is the tube that will eventually be hooked to a rubber hose that connects to the distributor.  While ¼” O.D. steel brake line works, I’ve found that the aluminum fuel transfer tubes used on the 600 cfm Holleys with the flat bowls also works well for this tube.  By fully inserting the new tube in the now exposed hole in the carb front, both the internal hole above and below the tube will be blocked.  That’s part of the plan.  Now back to that long stem slotted screw plug that was removed earlier.  Cut off the stem so that the screw can be reinstalled back in the bottom of the carb.  With the stem in place, the stem simply hits the new tube.  While the new ¼” O.D. tube that was installed should have effectively blocked off this hole, reinstalling the bottom screw is simply a safety measure to insure there is no direct vacuum signal making its way back to the ported vacuum signal.

 

Now plug the original port at the front of the carb that originally went to the distributor.  This particular port is interconnected with the secondary diaphragm vacuum supply and if not blocked, the secondaries will be sluggish if they work at all.  While not absolutely necessary, removing the spark advance valve and replacing it with a power valve block off plug will also insure that the vacuum secondaries are getting a full vacuum signal.

 

Once the carb is reinstalled on the engine, simply hook a hose at the new port on the carb and connect the other end of the hose to the vacuum can or pot at the distributor and you are done.

 

In regards to using ported vacuum signals for the distributor on a dual quad application, one thought process says that you should not need to use but one carburetor for the vacuum signal if both carbs are working together equally. Use the carb closest to the distributor in that case. If designing the carb linkages so that one of the carbs is a primary carburetor (works in advance of the other), then use the primary carb for the distributor vacuum advance signal. But I’ll add that experimenting with the distributor vacuum signal coming from both carbs may solve the problem of the vacuum signal being cut in half when using two carburetors that are working together. Air velocity within a single carb is reduced by half when two carbs are working in tandem.

 

Using a distributor vacuum advance chamber that can be disassembled so that the spring rate can be altered would be desirable. This goes back to the vacuum signal being cut in half if the carbs are working equally together. For this, the distributor vacuum advance spring rate would need to be lighter to get the vacuum advance to come in at a quicker rate. If using the vacuum signal from both carbs, then there’s a chance that the stock distributor vacuum chamber would work without any modifications.

 

Anyone else is free to chime in as there are a multitude of variations to making the above scenario workable.



Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)


Hoosier Hurricane
Posted 13 Years Ago
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Ted:

There is one point of your post that I respectfully disagree.  I don't feel that using the venturi vacuum signal from both carbs would double the strength of the signal.  The srength of the signal is determined by the air flow through the venturii and each carb would have equal air flow, hence equal signal.  But each carb is flowing half the required airflow, so each signal would be less, and teeing them together would double the volume of the signal, not the strength.  If I am wrong, please correct me.  By the way, I'm using manifold vacuum to actuate the vacuum advance on my '56 Bird with 2-4s and later distributor. 

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LordMrFord
Posted 13 Years Ago
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Never tested with two carbs, but pressure is same if manifold got same plenum for both carbs. So my opinion is that the single line is enough.(feel free to shot down my opinionSmile)



When using individual setup, you must link all pressure lines to one trought restrictors, because pressure signals in each cylinder are not steady. (Are Hilborn and Weber guys really using vacuum-operated Dizzy?)


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Posted 13 Years Ago
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LordMrFord.  With Hillborns and Webers, no vacuum advance for a distributor.  Mechanical advance only.

 

John.  Semi agreement on the vacuum signal when using both carbs as I’ve only used one carb on my own stuff for the distributor vacuum.  This includes dual quad and three deuce applications.  But I have altered the ported vacuum hole sizing in the carbs which does increase the amount of vacuum signal so there are some volume and pressure considerations here.  I’ll look into that in more detail when I do the dual quad test this winter.

 

As further information, I recognize that eliminating the venturi vacuum signal does not affect the volume of vacuum that’s being supplied to the distributor vacuum advance chamber.  By blocking off the venturi vacuum passage in the Teapot carb, the available vacuum signal to the distributor is essentially eliminated after the ¼ primary throttle opening which in turn permits the distributor to only be working with the mechanical advance portion after that point. By only having the ported vacuum signal available, any overly advanced throttle opening will not be providing vacuum to the distributor and permits the vacuum advance to work only under a mild throttle opening (cruise situations or very light acceleration).

 

Without blocking the venturi vacuum for use with the ’57 and up distributor, the vacuum signal ends up adding ignition advance at both the throttle position and engine rpm where it’s less desirable.  While the vacuum for the distributor can potentially be hooked up to manifold vacuum which will also go to zero vacuum at full throttle, surging at a low cruising speed can be a problem without a major distributor recurve.  That’s simply because you could potentially be running +20”Hg vacuum to the distributor at low rpm.  While there are ways around this, the oem engineers found the ported vacuum signal to be a much more flexible system when coordinated with the mechanical distributor advance.

 

It’s only because of the Load-O-Matic distributors that the venturi vacuum signal was incorporated within the carburetors.  Because the LOM distributor has no mechanical advance system, the venturi vacuum signal provides for ignition advance at both full throttle and at higher rpms or loading whereas with ported vacuum only, there would be no ignition advance at all.  This is why the ’56 and earlier cars suffer tremendously performance wise when the vacuum chambers go bad.  The engineers did a phenomenal job in calibrating the LOM carbs so that the correct vacuum would be available for LOM ignition advance but when that particular carb is used with the ’57 and newer distributors, there is too much vacuum signal available at the higher rpms which can result in detonation issues if the distributor itself is not recurved in which to compensate.

 

My apologies for a rather lengthy explanation.

Lorena, Texas (South of Waco)


Oldmics
Posted 13 Years Ago
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Not very well know is the fact that the "E" carbs (both 56 and 57 styles) do not  have the vaccum passsage in each of the primary venturi that runs from the base plate directly into each one of the primary venturi area (times 2 since there are two primary venturi areas).

Its simply not drilled in the raw casting of the "E" style carbs.

All the rest of the teapots have this vaccum passage way drilled from the base plate into both of the primary venturi area.

Also the 56 dual quad carb had a spark valve whereas the 57 "E" carbs do not have the spark valve.

N/S - What are you doing about the spark valves that exist in your carb cores for your modification? 

Nevermind-I just read Teds suggestion.Hehe

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Thank You Ted, John, LordMrFord, and Oldmics for making time to reply to my question. The back-and-forth generated a very complete answer to my inquiry and understanding for me.



I know that horsepower-wise, effort-wise, and maintainability-wise using John Mummert's intake and a single quad carb would be a better way-to-go. The complexity of the original style dual quad set-up and getting it to work right has always intrigued me. The last set of original rebuild-able '57 Holley 4000 2x4 carbs on eBay went for $1,300 earlier this year. For me, the challenge of getting two original '56 single quad units to function together appropriately by modifying them is a whole lot 'funner' than simply rebuilding two original 'correct' carburetors.



Oldmics is quite correct. There are 'unduplicatible' differences in the original '56 Power Pack and '57 'E' code series carbs. Hence, the challenge to get the '56 single quad units to work right together.



Thanks for helping me on my y-block bucket list! Smile

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