Again, thanks to all of you for your help. I finally decided to bite the bullet and take the Bird to a transmission shop recommended to me by several people. They were confident they could find whatever parts might be needed and it appears that they have. I was there when they opened up the cases (trans and o/d). I was surprised to see several gears with broken teeth, etc, Amazing the trans still worked good and didn't make a whole lot more noise than it did. Not sure yet what it will cost me, but it should be like new....if it gives me another 50+ yrs of service, no basis to complain I guess. Expect to get it out of the shop this coming week. Again, thanks for the help......Joe

I got 2 T-89 transmissions at the Moultrie swap meet. The first one I got was a long tail shaft. When I got it home I found some chipped gear teeth & the sun & planetary gears was totally stripped. I got another one at a later show but it was a short tail shaft with a Spicer u-joint. I took the OD unit off of that one, got a new 6' input shaft from Tee Bird & a C-6 yolk for the 31 spline tail shaft & put that all together & put it in my '56 Ford. I had to cut about 1/2" out of the cross member & move it back a bit. I direct wired the solenoid & put a late model speedometer housing & cable in with a 23 tooth gear. All is well ....

Doing Fords for 45 years. '56 Customline Victoria

E.J. in Havana FL

Thanks again, Charlie. I had actually seen that article at some point in the past. Good of you to find and send it to me.....Joe

Hi Joe,

The article that follows will answer your question. The article went on to list many of the makes of cars and trucks that used the T-85 or T-89

Regards,
Charlie
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Feature Article from Hemmings Motor News

December, 2006 - Jim O'Clair

Few transmissions can claim to be as popular with American manufacturers as the Warner T-85. From the mid-Fifties into the early-Sixties, you were likely to see it mounted behind the engines of most U.S. car makers. The helical-cut gears offered in the T-85 made it a much quieter transmission than its predecessors, which lent to its popularity as standard equipment in many three-speed applications during that time period. Some manufacturers such as American Motors and Ford added an electric overdrive, also designed by Warner, to the tail housing to make this transmission more reliable at highway speeds and more fuel-efficient. The T-85 was also the transmission that Warner tinkered with to build its most popular four-speed transmission, the T-10. The T-85 is popular with many classic car enthusiasts because it can be installed behind just about any engine size and can handle the higher torque and horsepower engines with ease. Although not used in any Chevrolets [spelled s-c-r-u-b-s] as original equipment, the T-85 will replace the weaker Saginaw three-speed with minimal installation problems. The T-85 has a 9-bolt D-shaped side cover to access the gears and side-shifting linkage that was inline rather than staggered, as they are in the T-89, so the T-85 shares those same features with the T-10. The case is 9 1/2 inches long and made of cast-iron, making the T-85/T-89 transmission both very strong and very heavy. [A '57 'Bird T-85C-1A w/ overdrive weighs ~ 140 lbs.!] Its initial use was in performance V-8 engine applications such as 1955 Packards, Mercurys,1956 Studebakers, and the supercharged 1957 Ford Thunderbirds. First gear was not synchronized, although second and third gears were, using 36-tooth bronze synchronizer rings. The T-85/T-89 uses a four-step cluster gear. The major difference between the T-85 and T-89 transmissions is the mainshaft; the T-85 uses a helically cut mainshaft, whereas the T-89 has a straight-cut mainshaft. When Warner built the T-85 into the T-10, it put the fourth gear in the reverse position in the gear case and moved reverse back to the tailshaft. The high-ratio non-synchronized first gear allows you to shift into second gear at a higher rpm, but this also makes it very difficult to downshift from second to first at speed. Shift ratios were either 2.53 or 2.49:1 for first gear, 1.59:1 for second gear, and 1.00:1 for third gear. The reverse ratio was 3.15:1. Truck ratios were 2.99 or 2.97:1 for first, depending on year and model with 1.75:1 for second and 1.00:1 for third. Reverse remained at 3.15:1. The input shaft is 1 1/8 inches in diameter in most passenger car applications and 1 3/8 inches in the Ford trucks, and has 10 splines. The clutch outside diameter varies between engine sizes and manufacturers, but both the friction disc and pressure plate were available between 9 1/2 and 12 inches.The casting number on the passenger side of the transmission is another easy way to identify the T-85. The transmission model is part of its casting number, usually with an additional letter designation after the T-85.

NoShortcuts
a.k.a. Charlie Brown
near Syracuse, New York

Charlie and Jim: Thanks much for the good info. I conclude that the trans I have is from a 60's Ford, which is what I thought, since it has the 23 spine input shaft. I was hoping the T85C-1A marking on the case would narrow it down to a particular model/year, but not so obviously. I guess the only way to be sure another trans was the same would be to get out the measuring tape, and also note mounting arrangements.

I am a CTCI member so familiar with Gil Baumgartner's fine materials.

I notice reference to T85/T-89 overdrive transmission. Not the first time I've seen that. What does it mean----are they the same transmission?

Thanks again for your help....Joe

Charlie,

Thanks for the additional information.

That would seem to fit in with what both of you are stating, but let me see if I am putting this all together in my senior mind.

Gil states that the 1957 (312) three speed w/o overdrive was the same as what you are also stating - the "heavy duty" T85 with the 312. He did not address the 292 with the standard 259 as he just mentioned the 312 and the heavy duty T-85 without overdrive, not the 292. Your addition of the C code 292 with the 259 would be another piece which would fit in on the C code 292 'Birds. It is my understanding that the 292 '57 C code and the 292 '56 M code 'Birds are pretty rare.

The other item about the R11 tailshaft # in the PHOTO #4 2nd paragraph that starts out "The 1957 O.D. transmission... rear casting #T85C-7B..." corrected the T85C-7B to RN11-1N in the errata for the Manual. I pasted that correction on the graphic at the top but it is small and hard to read. Is that the one to which you were referring?

So it would appear to me that the only thing we are missing is the tailshaft casting # on the '57 C code 292 with the 259 transmission. Unless it is the AB7651-A mentioned in PHOTO #2 paragraph 2 about the other 259 transmissions. Did the 55-6 259 'Bird transmissions have the "rib" you pointed out in the pictures on the '57 'Bird and are they the same length?

As Doug Thrasher said on the page with the pictures; "What a parts nightmare..."

I have only rebuilt one 3 speed which was in my '56 Customline in about 1964-5 while I was in High School. And, that was with a 10 dollar transmission out of the junkyard that I scrounged the gears for the ones I had torn up in mine. I didn't even know about casting #'s then. It just looked the same to me.

Thanks again to you and all those who take the time to help those of us with little experience get a handle on all the little nuances.

Jim
Norfolk, VA

"MABLE"
1956 Thunderbird Green / Brown Interior (ZE-XG)

"MEAN GREEN"
1956 Mainline (FG-BE)

I have the highest regard for Gil Baumgartner and his work in producing the now 481 page Thunderbird Restoration Details and Specifications Manual published by the Classic Thunderbird Club International. The first installment of this came out in 1995 and the latest installment, Addendum ‘J’, was released recently.

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As Gil mentions on page 248 of the manual, there was a heavy duty 3 speed manual transmission available in the ’57 ‘Bird. And, yes, it was a Borg Warner T-85. However, Gil’s suggestion that this was THE 3 speed manual transmission for the ’57 ‘Bird is in error.

Me thinks the Borg Warner 259 was THE transmission supplied in ’57 with the 292 ‘C’ code ‘Birds much as it was in both ’55 and ’56 in the 292 equipped ‘Birds. That said, Ford did change the rear extension housing on the Borg Warner 259 transmission used in the ’57 292 equipped ‘Birds.

To get a look at this unit, Google the 'Y-Blocks Forever' site; on the Home page that opens, toggle the heading 'Articles' on the far right. On the page that opens, toggle the thirteenth title from the top, 'Differences in the '57 Manual Trannys' by Doug Thrasher. -Notice the ‘rib’ on the bottom of the ‘57 'Bird 3 speed tranny extension housing.

Although not widely publicized or discussed, in ’57 the 312 ‘Bird could be obtained with the T-85 3 speed with overdrive manual transmission, the Fordomatic automatic transmission, AND a T-85 three speed only manual transmission. The T-85 3 speed only manual transmission was ONLY available with the 312 engine in the ‘D’, ‘E’, or ‘F’ code vehicles.

The 3 speed only manual transmissions listed in the 1949-1959 Ford Car Parts and Accessories Text Catalog on pages 151 and 152 for the ’57 ‘Birds are:

B7S 7003-B 8 cyl. 292 S/T

B7S 7003-D 8 cyl. 292 S/T

B7S 7003-C 8 cyl. 312 S/T

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With regard to manual transmission input shaft size, all '57 Ford manual transmissions are likely 1 1/8 in diameter. As Gil indicates, however, the diameter is reduced at the spline where the clutch slides on to a 1 inch diameter. No argument.

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With regard to the T-85 overdrive extension housing casting numbers, I gave the one I’ve recorded from two ’57 ‘Birds I’ve worked on. The R11 number I used is the same one used in the 1954-1966 Hollander Interchange Manual for their identification purposes. This is not to say that there were not other casting numbers on those overdrive extension housings.

_______________________

Gil Baumgartner’s credentials as a ’55 – ’57 Thunderbird authority are without question. Gil has likely forgotten more about 'Birds than I’ll ever know. However, I stand by what I wrote, it’s the truth as I know it, Jim.

NoShortcuts
a.k.a. Charlie Brown
near Syracuse, New York

Here are some more handy Reference #'s.

This is from the CTCI Restoration Manual pg. 248.
Members of CTCI can purchase it.
Their site is http://ctci.org/index.php

I have found the Manual and other items they sell invaluable. Gil Baumgartner has put together a great resource.

I did get permission from them to post this so there would be no copyrite concerns.



Jim
Norfolk, VA

"MABLE"
1956 Thunderbird Green / Brown Interior (ZE-XG)

"MEAN GREEN"
1956 Mainline (FG-BE)

The ’55 ‘Bird with and without overdrive and the ’56 and ’57 292 3 speed ‘Birds came with B-W 259 transmissions. The ’55 ‘Bird overdrive offering coupled the 259 trans. with a B-W R10 overdrive unit.

The T-85/T-89 overdrive transmission existed from ~1948 –1972 and was used by FoMoCo in cars ‘til ’67 and in pick-ups ‘til ‘72. I’ve read that B-W R10 overdrives (3 planetary gears) were used behind some T-85s, but the Ford T-85 overdrives I’ve looked at or had apart only had R11 overdrive units (4 planetary gears).

There are differences in the B-W T-85 transmissions, cases, and overdrive extension housings

- three speed gear ratios

- case bolt patterns where the case bolts to the bellhousing,

- input shaft lengths

- input shaft clutch spline diameters

- input shaft clutch spline count

- input shaft front bearing retainer housing dimensions

- tailshaft extension housing lengths

- tailshaft extension housing rear mount location

- output tailshaft spline count

’56 and ’57 312 ‘Birds had a T-85C-1A trans case with a 1 1/8 inch diameter input shaft with 10 splines for the clutch disc. The output shaft spline count was 16. The B-W R11 overdrive extension housing for ’57 ‘Birds had the casting numbers R11-1N on it.

Slumlord from this Forum has previously reported that later Ford T-85s with overdrive used behind 352, 390, and 406 Ford FE engines

- had 23 spline input shafts for the clutch disc,

- 31 spline output shafts for the driveshaft yoke, and

- will fit into the ’55 – ’57 ‘Bird 'X' frame opening without rear mount problems

That said, my GUESS is that if the T-85C-1A you have has a 23 spline input shaft, a 31 spline output shaft, and has R11-1P or AR11-1R on the overdrive tailshaft extension housing, it is out of a ’60 something Ford or ’58 to ’60 T’Bird.

My '60-'64 Ford Parts Catalog shows the following engines using the T-85 OD trans.

- ’58-’63 332 and 352

- ’61-’62 390

- ’64 352 and 390

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Your transmission noise could be merely countershaft or mainshaft bearings which are available.

IMO the worse case scenario is a damaged overdrive planetary gear set. (I found one of four planetary gears frozen in one R-11 unit I worked on)

Another possibility is a damaged free-wheeling clutch unit OR the hub the clutch roller bearings run in. (I ran up against one R-11 rear extension main shaft with hub where the inside of the hub had a washboard surface that the clutch unit rollers had been running against)

Many used R11 planetary gear sets and free-wheeling clutch units are out there. I suspect that all R11 planetary gear sets and free-wheeling clutch units are interchangeable. The rear extension main shaft and hub can be tougher to come-up with, IF you needed one. -It’s got to be the right length.

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The T-85 transmission is a rugged unit. Per past Forum threads, B-W recommended using mineral oil as the lubricant in these. You might try changing the lubricant. It might make a difference!

Hope this helps

NoShortcuts
a.k.a. Charlie Brown
near Syracuse, New York

There's an outfit in Ohio, Northwest (?) Transmission parts that will probably have the parts. FATSCO is another likely source.

Frank/Rebop

Bristol, In ( by Elkhart)