So what does the Y block world think about the current state of the Finincal melt down especially in relation to FoMoCo?  Bear in mind the following facts:

1) The republican Bush administration promoted and got a $0.7 Trillion bailout to the financial companies that have screwed up the motrgage and credit markets so badly that businesses are closing up right and left all around the world. But they (the Bushies) are now baulking at a plan worth currently $15 billion or about 2% of what they are planning to give the Financial companies and they can't even begin to administer that business!!

2) Even though all American producers especially FoMoCo and GM are building high quality cars that are said to be competitive with the best Asian and European brands a large portion of the American market will not consider them in any buying decision.

3) The big 3 Co's support an older work force and a huge retirement legacy that the foreign manufacturers on shore or overseas do not support.  If the big 3 go under eventually the gov will end up picking up at least some of these retirement costs.

4) The foreign manufacturers are located in southern states who lured them to locate there by giving great forgivness on real estate and employment taxes, Free training for the work force (ie paid for by the state), low wage base and fairly lax regulation of safety and immigration.  So these states are subsidising the foreign makers and are largely represented by the republican senators who make the most noise about letting the big 3 fail. 

5) FoMoCo recognized a couple years ago that things weren't going all that well and started downsizing and building up cash reserves to weather the storm.  They also started preparing to bring smaller cars from Europe and Asia with world wide "platforms".  So now they are in the best shape to move into the new markets

6) GM has been far less forceful about downsizing their operations

7) Chrysler is now owned by a completely private big financial company Cereibus(sp?) who bought it from Daimler at fire sale prices.  Another name for this is speculation.

So here is one possible scenario: GM gets a bailout with the CarCzar to be sure they use the funds wisely and don't use the gov $ to get a competitive advantage over FoMoCo.  Cereibus gets to liquidate Chrysler and take their lumps.  That means the the Gov probably gets stuck with the Chrysler employee retirement costs in the long run.

Doug T

The Highlands, Louisville, Ky.

Y-Guy Doug: You've just opened a can of worms and being the



Great country we are, everyone has a "belly-button" so the



opinions will vary. I'm from Alabama, and we are one of the



states that put up the big incentives to draw the "others"



here. The one thing that sticks out, in MY thinking, these



Japanese companies are using our people, our materials,



making billions on profits (and have for years long before



they came south). Honda has been "here", Ohio I think, and



they've made and continue to make big profits and have



for years. Why them, and not GM/Ford/Chrysler,( management????)



I'm just saying "our" big three have been greedy



and lived a little "High on the hog" for years and its finally



catching up with them..



I think we've got to help them, to some degree,



because of all the "little guys" that would go under with them.



I just want to see them watched closely and not waste



the hard earned money WE are giving them. The Chrysler



corp went thru this (K-Car!!!) and came out O.K. but that was



a long time ago. All I can say, PRAY for our leaders, whether



you voted for them or not, and hope this can be repaired....



Just my 2 pennies worth



Bill

Bill

Pelham,Al

I agree with much of what Bill says. I think we, the American people, need to learn from our mistakes and this will not happen if we bail out these companies. Quite frankly, I don't see how giving such a large sum of money to those who have proven by their ignorant and stubborn behavior that they can't manage it will be of any benefit. At this point what's done is done. Let's hope we aren't digging a deeper hole with the 700 billion $ and 15 billion $ "bailouts."



On the subject of the economy in general, I am enthusiastic. It's giving me an opportunity to buy space tourism related stocks real cheap! But at my age, it is an advantage. Hopefully the more experienced folks here will come out well in the end.


Lawrenceville, GA

First off, even though I have voted mostly Democratic for my voting record, I want to make sure that people don't confuse Bush and his supporters with conservatives or traditional Republicans. I admire and support Republicans like Nebraska's Chuck Hagel, Colorado's Joel Hefley and Ron Paul from Texas, men of principle. I even admire my state's (Idaho) Governor Butch Otter. Otter is somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun, and a hardcore anti-environmentalist but he's an actual conservative who voted against the Patriot Act when he was a Senator for Idaho.



Bush and company think themselves capitalists. They are, in fact, corporatists; supporters of certain businesses but not really in favor of free market capitalism.



As for GM? If they had spent their energies finishing the electric car instead of spending money lobbying the California legislature to repeal the mandate for zero emission cars, if GM had competed with Toyota instead of ceding the small car market to foreign competition and lobbying congress not to raise the CAFE standards for trucks, if GM had done a credible job of competing in the car market, I might be more sympathetic. If they had followed through on that electric car, GM would rule the car market.



If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus.



Also, GM once had a huge retirement fund for its workers. Because the stock market at one time was growing and because that fund had gotten large, they successfully lobbied to reduce their obligations to that fund. I'll have to research that more but I remember it happening. Now their workers won't have the retirement they earned.



GM, its board, and its executive office deserve jail.

Best regards,



Paul Menten

Meridian, Idaho

I suppose (in a perfect world), the taxpayers should bail out Ford, and let GM & Chrysler go under. But, in reality, success usually depends upon innovation and big picture/forward thinking (a la Henry Ford, H. Honda, etc.). Since those attributes are no longer characteristic, in general, of American style business, the money would be wasted even on FoMoCo. Better to suffer the temporary economic hardship of letting the moribund U.S. auto industry collapse, and thus make room for a new generation of creative/innovative people?

6 VOLTS/POS. GRD. NW INDIANA

I have an opinion on this subject but I don't know if this is the place for it. I would just say I hope the "Big Three" can make it without My tax dollars. I have paid for My cars.

   God Bless.   Tim                           http://yblockguy.com/

350ci Y-Block FED "Elwood", 301ci Y-Block Unibody LSR "Jake", 312ci Y-Block '58 F-100, 338ci Y-Block powered Model A Tudor

tim@yblockguy.com  Visalia, California    Just west of the Sequoias

Well it's really sad that it has come to this. Yes there was some mis-management and not enough forward thinking, which is why Ford is a little OK.   But, a big part of their problem is Americans weakness for promoting & buying foreign !  Read any Car magazines editors & staff reports and you realize how biased most of the articles are towards Japanese cars. This has part of the trend to buying Honda's & Toyota's etc. Not to say they are not any good, they are but People read and follow!  American cars are good too!  I've heard from so many owners that this is the best car I ever owned-yet they owned it only 6 months.  I have owned a Ford Freestyle for 2 yrs now without a hitch. You read the reviews on it & the owners give it very high ratings but the magazines a lot lower. I have read these on many American cars & it is always the same. Are these editors experts?? They have been swayed & look the other way at American cars & they in turn have swayed the people who read them. It has been Un-American all the way!   Be American-Buy American!!      I can remember back in the 70's when we tried to export cars to Japan, they were smashing them with sludge-hammers on TV. I don't forget these things.  I remember when Columbia coat co. Closed down a factory in Vermont just before Christmas & moved Overseas.  My neighbors took it hard and were crying.  Will I still buy those products-I don't think so.        They blame the unions & costs to make it here-but charge more for their product now-with cheaper labor overseas, so who wins?  Unions tried to prevent the jobs from leaving but people blamed them instead of the companies!  Go shopping with your wife and look at all the tags at where stuff is made. It makes me sick. I want to buy American & support my own people !!!  America-Wake up- its almost too late!!    This is one big can of Worms!  

     

Regardless of what happens with the Big Three regarding to bailing them out or letting them file for bankruptcy, I worry more about the workers and their families and the smaller subcontractor's workers going down with them. This thing is bigger than just bailing Ford, Chrysler and GM.





Johnson Rod



Southern California

I agree with PC that both Bushes are liberals.  I just don't think voting more toward the socialist methods is the answer. 

The mortgage debacle was started in the 70s with a law (cannot recall the name now) to increase home ownership with good intentions - statistics showed home owners are more productive, make more money and are happier citizens so increase home ownership and make people happier, right.  Unfortunately the statistics were misinterpreted - home ownership is a result not a cause. 

Same misapplication of statistics is seen in judges ordering juvenile delinquets to stay in school.  And the delinquents have more time to influence other students.  Result the schools dumbed down the public education system to the point that some "graduates" cannot read or write.  High school graduation is a result not a cause. 

Clinton and W both added to the push for "sub prime" loans to make more people happy.

The failure of the morgage industry put a strain on all the other facets of American economy and that slowing economy is pushing the poorly balanced Big 3 over the cliff.  Yes, Ford is slightly better off.  This is the second time Chrysler has been in need of rescue.  Big 3 management thought they could survive anything and agreed to non competitive wages and benefits.  I heard that laid off GM workers by contract still get their full pay and that retirement is 100% of the amount they were getting.  Ridiculous if true.

GM and rest of Big 3 will not immediately close their doors if no $ is handed over to the extortionists.  They will file Chapter 11 and begin the much needed reorganization and if done right come out of bankrupcy a better company.  If not done right, one of the foreign companies may buy some equipment and marques.

The feds should not have begun by bailing out New York City and Chrysler.  California already has their hand out.  Stop the madness now.

Merry Christmas, Y'all.

Tom Compton

You gotta have the right tools and know how to use 'em.

TC - Austin, Texas

  I would point out that the housing crisis with sub prime loans (read that as people who should never have qualified for a loan) goes bock to the Clinton administration when there was a hue and cry across the land that all should get to be a homeowner. This was championed by ACORN and numerous other organizations.  The North American Free Trade Act (NAFTA) turned to be less than a stellar deal for the US economy and that was initiated by Geo Bush Sr and left on the desk of the oval office for Clinton to sign into law.  If you look back, rocks need to be thrown at members of both parties as well as numerous corporate leaders: Enron, AIG etc.  I find myself voting AGAINST someone rather than for someone.  We have the best system of government in the world, but it works best when we elect honorable men/women of integrity who resist the temptation to abuse their position.

  Should the American taxpayer bail out the auto makers????????????  I know we all hate the thought of it.  However, I'm afraid it may be the lesser of the two (or more) evils. It's claimed for every auto worker that loses a job, nine others in auto related or dependent industries lose theirs and they become a financial burden rather then a contributor.  Scary.  If one of the not so big three folds, supposedly, the others will too becaus so many suppliers would also go under. Ripple effect I guess. A Toyota rep even testified before congress that Toyota would also be affected. Go figure. Buy American it's the ultimate patriotic act. WOW, did I say all that???????????????

Missouri Mike... now stepping down from his podium

I'd rather be lucky than good.................

    but good ain't bad!!